Question re: German invasion of Poland, Sept 1939

[armyguy62]

I have a question regarding the actions of the Polish Cavalry during the German invasion of Poland. I have read that the Polish Cavalry
1. attacked a German Panzer Division;
2. never attacked a German Panzer Division (German propaganda)
3. attacked a German Panzer Division because prior to the war they had exercised with the infant German Panzer Divisions when they only had automobiles covered in wood and cloth frames (to simulate tanks) and did not realize they were armoured; and
4. were surrounded / cut off by a German Panzer Division and had no choice but to ride through (no attack) the Germans to escape.

Does anyone know a source for a definitive answer to this question? Thanks

 

[redleafjumper]

This source looks pretty good to me: http://www.polishnews.com/fulltext/history/2001/history4.shtml

The action described purports to be a first hand account written by a participant on the Polish side.

 

[armyguy62]

Thanks redleafjumper, the site looks good and provides what may be the best answer I am likely to find. Regards

 

[redleafjumper]

If I were you I would attempt to contact the author and find out more information regarding cavalry actions against armoured units, which I believe is what you were actually looking for.  As you can see, even though German propaganda at the time belittled the cavalry, much of the werhmacht and other European unit were very reliant on horses. 

Regardless, it would be worth it to contact this Polish horseman.  Likely someone who was involved first hand in a cavalry charge on a motorized column would be aware of other such actions.  It would be most helpful if this veteran was still alive.

 

[geo]

great story BTW
that having been said.... have a distinct feeling that while this was the last glorious folly of troopers making a charge with sabre and pikes - they probably weren't as lucky the next couple of times around when having to deal with the Germand AND the Soviets.

 

[pbi]

I have a question regarding the actions of the Polish Cavalry during the German invasion of Poland. I have read that the Polish Cavalry
1. attacked a German Panzer Division;
2. never attacked a German Panzer Division (German propaganda)
3. attacked a German Panzer Division because prior to the war they had exercised with the infant German Panzer Divisions when they only had automobiles covered in wood and cloth frames (to simulate tanks) and did not realize they were armoured; and
4. were surrounded / cut off by a German Panzer Division and had no choice but to ride through (no attack) the Germans to escape.

Does anyone know a source for a definitive answer to this question? Thanks

While I can't quote a specific reference, over the years I've read just about everything I could get my hands on concerning the Polish Campaign and the Polish Army.   I believe that the old tale of Polish Cavalry intentionally charging German tanks is just that: a tale. From what I have read, this was a story specifically sprread to foreign journalists by German military propaganda types. While there are a number of cases of Polish cavalry actions against German forces, the idea that the Poles would intentionally have acted in such a foolish manner doesn't make sense because:

-the Poles had been using tanks since the 1920s, and had fought against Bolshevik armoured vehicles in the Russo-Polish war of 1920;

-the Polish Army had about 1300 armoured fighting vehicles of all types, ranging from armoured gun tractors to tanks. They had an Armoured Trainig Centre and two mechanized brigades (10 Mech Cav Bde and Warsaw Mech Cav Bde). Poland also built tanks and AFVs, including   a very advanced   Christie-style prototype (10 TP) that would have outclassed almost anything the Germans were fielding in 1939. In other words, they knew all about tanks;

-a typical Polish cavalry brigade included an armoured element, usually of tanks or armoured cars. As well, the bdes had an anti-tank gun section. The point is that Polish cavalry bde commanders and their soldiers knew what tanks were;

-the Poles had been in various states of military tension with Germany since the end of WWI, particularly as a result of the fighting in Silesia between German "Freikorps" and ethnic Polish forces in the early 20's. The Poles regarded Germany as a threat, and it is a reasonable assumption that their intelligence agencies were focused on gathering as much data as they could, particularly as the Nazis came to power and started to make noises about redressing the Danzig issue. It is pretty well known that the Poles were well aware of the impending German attack and had been getting ready for a couple of months, so they were not really "surprised" by the Germans. (The fact that they were not fully mobilized by the end of August 1939 was due as much or more to French and British political pressure as to Polish factors) It is very difficult to imagine that the Poles would have believed anything as silly as the idea that German tanks were cardboard or wood. German tanks had already been in combat action in Spain and in the invasion of Czechoslovakia: I am pretty sure that the Poles would have observed both of these operations closely; and finally

there is no evidence that the Poles were any more stupid, incompetent or ignorant than any other European army. In fact, once the invasion started, the Poles gave an excellent account of themselves against overwhelming strategic odds. That they fought as hard as they did, and lasted until the beginning of October 1939, is much to their credit.

Cheers.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Poland in fact had the most professional army on the continent in 1939.  The German Army was largely a conscript army, and had undergone huge teething problems - in 1933 they were at a mandated level of 100,000, in 1939 they were a couple million strong.  Anyone want to hazard a guess how many NCOs and officers had to be created out of whole cloth in that time?

I interviewed a German officer who served in Poland, France, Russia, Italy, Normandy, and the Bulge; he said the best troops of all the soldiers he fought against were the Poles.  His views were not unique.

There were instances of Russian horse cavalry being used at inoppurtune times as well, incidentally.  pbi has it right about Polish cavalry attacking tanks as being largely mythical.  I can't remember if Cooper discusses that or not; if I get time I will look it up.

 

[armyguy62]

I am going to continue looking into this but here are a couple of thoughts...

Thanks to everyone who took the time to answer. I am new to army.ca and still find it odd to be conversing (so to speak) with people who care about the military, are well read in military history, can put it in the proper context and can put a coherent thought down for others to read. I have been an avid reader of Canadian military history since I was 10 and have rarely found anyone with whom I could hold a conversation... I know I am babbling, but I find this very exciting (I know... I should get out more!)

I expect that, given the size of the Polish Cavalry there were many encounters between them and German mechanized forces. I also suspect there may be some truth to the story I have read of the surrounded Cavalry unit riding through the German mech units to safety. This may have been interpreted by the Germans as an attack, but was more likely used as propoganda to belittle the Poles.

Rooting out the most accurate answer is, I think, of the utmost importance for anyone who enjoys military history. Too often an author will cite a statistic or statement without factchecking. Eventually the erroneous "fact" becomes accepted as fact and the real history has been altered to conform with this untruth. Sorry for the rant, thanks again. I enjoyed and value the input.

 

[geo]

AG62,
You also have to take into account the Propaganda value the Germans were so fond of using. For their own domestic consumption. At the start of WW2 there were a lot of germans who weren't all that happy about the actions being taken by their own gov't. Propaganda to belittle the opposition they were facing happened all the time... all the way through to April 1945.

 

[pbi]

Try this site. It is quite interesting, and gives a take from the Polish side, as well as describing what may well have been the genesis of the "cavalry charging tanks" legend.

http://www.um.grudziadz.pl/_main_kaw_en.php?link=4

Cheers

 

[3rd Herd]

I do seem to remember seeing a report from a German section/platoon commander of Panzer II's who reported a charge by a troop of Polish cavalry. In the report he mentioned that there were very few if any survivors from the charge, further that they initially held fire fearing that the cavalry could have been the advanced units of Soviet forces advancing from the east. At the end of the second world war the americans removed to the states not only huge amounts of german documents but also a number of high ranking officers to assist in the translation of such. Many of the these documents or copies of(originals were eventually returned to germany) are available through various American military libraries and their National Archives, some lo and behold are even available in an on line foremat. Also you can access old copies of the "Intelligence Bulletin"(http://www.lonesentry.com/intelbulletin/index.html) which was a US government publican during the war years. good luck

Another bit of the puzzle-There are many "myths" that surround the September Campaign; the fictional Polish cavalry charges against German tanks (actually reported by the Italian press and used as propaganda by the Germans)source:http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/WW2.html

 

[larry Strong]

Heinz Guderian states in his book "Panzer Leader", that during the beginning of the Polish campaign, when he was GOC XIX Army Corps that:

On the 3rd of September the 23 inf Div was inserted between 3 Pz Div which had pushed to the Vistula, and the 20 (Mot) Inf Div, by this maneuver they succeeded in totally encircling the enemy on our front in the wooded country north of Schwetz and west of Graudenz. The Polish Pomorska Brigade, in ignorance of the nature of our tanks, had charged them with swords and lances and had suffered tremendous losses.

Not counting the hundreds of thousands of horses employed for transport and supply, the German "Heer" entered the war with no "Cavalry" formations on the books, any cavalry regt's brought over from the Weimar republic had been absorbed into the new Panzer formations.


After the start of the war on the Soviets, several cavalry divs were raised. the Heer only raised one div known as the Cossack div, which consisted of Don, Kuban, and Terek Cossacks, some German Officers and NCO's, and possibly elements of other nationalities.

The SS raised 2 cav div;

8. SS-Kavallerie-Division "Florian Geyer" was formed on 4.41 from 2 Ritter-Standarten and used mainly as an anti-partisan unit behind the lines. it was up-rated to a Division 6.-8.42. Once again Anti-partisan duties along with some front line action. It retreated into Budapest and some time between 11.44 and 2.45 was annihilated in the city.

22. SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division "Marie Theresa" was raised in Hungary spring-summer 44, from 2 regts. Hungarian volksdeutsche and vetran SS-Kav-regt 17 from Florian Geyer. Only the 17th and 52 regt's were ready when they were sent into action at Debreczen. 53 Regt joined 10.44 just in time to go to Budapest and join Florian Geyer in their fate.

The only other major cavalry formation was the Vaslov Army which was the
  RUSSKAYA OSVO- BODITELNAYA ARMIYA: Russian Liberation Army; the name of two divisions of Russians serving in the German army; the first established in December 1944, and the second in January 1945. Both divisions surrendered to U.S Army units. Most of their men were handed over to the Soviets and few survived under their captors. The were led by a Soviet prisoner General Andrei Vaslov. He was also turned over to the Soviets by Churchill and executed by the Soviets.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Not counting the hundreds of thousands of horses employed for transport and supply, the German "Heer" entered the war with no "Cavalry" formations on the books, any cavalry regt's brought over from the Weimar republic had been absorbed into the new Panzer formations.

Possibly not true ? - 1 Cavalry Division served in Russia and later converted to become 24 Panzer Division, but I thought that was done after the start of Barbarossa?


http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/germanhorse/

In the first 2 months of the Russian campaign, when the German armies were advancing rapidly, the 1st Cavalry Division was almost continuously in action in the central sector. It had been expanded further to a total of six regiments, probably organized under three brigades. But the tactics it had mastered in Poland and France, where Germany controlled the air and enjoyed fire power and mobility superiority, were apparently not too successful when applied to the conditions in Russia. The division was withdrawn at the height of German success, sent to occupied France, and converted into the 24th Panzer Division (later to be destroyed at Stalingrad, though subsequently reformed in France). No more cavalry units above squadron size were formed until the latter part of 1943.

It does mention a Heer cavalry brigade being absorbed in 1939 and then expanded later - but IIRC did serve on horseback in Russia (?), and 24 Pz Div retained the golden-yellow waffenfarbe as well as cavalry titles (Rittmeister vice Hauptmann, Wachmeister vice Feldwebel, etc.).

The article mentions the cav brigade being motorized, and then expanded to division status.   The webpage I offered is the only source I have at hand and it seems ambiguous as to whether any of the expanded div served on horseback or not...

 

[larry Strong]

I stand corrected

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I stand corrected

Maybe not; the page really doesn't mention the div using horses....? 

 

[larry Strong]

I did a little more home work and have found some other info thought the details are scarce.

I Kavallerie-Korps

GOC - General der Kavallerie Gustav Harteneck 910.6.44 - 8.5.45
AO was the Eastern front.

3 Kavallerie-Division

GOC - Generalmajor Peter von der Groben ?.2.45-8.5.45
AO Hungary 2.45 - 3.45
     Austria   3.45 - 5.45

4 Kavallerie-Division

GOC Generalleutnat Rudolf Holste 28.2.45 - 24.3.45
       Generalleutnat Helmuth von Grolman 24.3.45 - 8.5.45
AO Hungary 2.45 - 3.45
     Austria 3.45 -4.45

I have not been able to find out any other info on them yet, and it's also a little past the "Poland" timeline, unless you are looking at the Germans coming home :

 

[3rd Herd]

Re: German Cavalry Units Eastern Front- GERMAN HORSE CAVALRY AND TRANSPORT Intelligence report on the German use of cavalry and horse transport in WWII including Waffen-SS, from the Intelligence Bulletin, March 1946. (Sourcehttp://www.lonesentry.com/articles/germanhorse/)

-The extent of use of independent horse cavalry units by the Germans varied inversely with German fortunes. During the first 3 years of the war, when Germany was ascendant, such units were almost abandoned completely; they never exceeded one division. From 1943, new cavalry units were formed, and by early 1945 there were six cavalry divisions and two cavalry corps.

-Development of independent, cavalry units during World War II is best described by surveying the operations of the four following classifications: early army units (1939-41), Waffen-SS units (1941-45), Cossack units (1943-45), and later army units (1944-45).

see above source url for a more complete documentation

Back to horses against tanks

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Polish-war-myths
The battle of Krojanty

During the action the Polish cavalry units met a large group of German infantry resting in a woods near the village of Krojanty. Colonel Mastalerz decided to take the enemy by surprise and immediately ordered a cavalry charge, a tactics the Polish cavalry did not use as their main weapon.

The charge was successful and the German infantry unit was dispersed and the Poles occupied the woods. Moreover, the German advance was stopped for enough time to allow the withdrawal of Polish 1st Rifle battalion and National Defence battalion Czersk from the area of Chojnice. However, the sounds of the battle notified the crews of the APCs stationed nearby and soon the Polish unit got under heavy machine gun fire.

According to Heinz Guderian's memoirs, the Polish cavalry charge impressed the Germans and caused a widespread panic among the soldiers and the staff of German 20th Motorised Infantry Division, which delayed their offensive and forced them to consider a tactical retreat. This was however prevented by personal intervention of Gen. Guderian.

Aftermath and the myth

The Polish cavalry charge stopped the German pursuit and the units of Czersk Operational Group were able to withdraw southwards unopposed. Also, it took the enemy several hours to reorganise and continue the advance. On September 2, 1939, the 18th Pomeranian Uhlans Regiment was decorated by Gen. Grzmot-Skotnicki, the commander of the Operational Group, with his own Virtuti Militari medal for valour shown in this combat.

The same day the German war correspondents were brought to the battlefield together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown the battlefield, the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, as well as German tanks that arrived to the place after the battle. One of the Italian correspondents sent home an article, in which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who charged German tanks with sabres and lances. Although such a charge did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the myth was used by German propaganda during the war. After the end of World War II it was still used by Soviet propaganda as an example of stupidity of Polish commanders, who allegedly did not prepare their country for the war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers.


my two cents

 

[larry Strong]

According to Heinz Guderian's memoirs, the Polish cavalry charge impressed the Germans and caused a widespread panic among the soldiers and the staff of German 20th Motorised Infantry Division, which delayed their offensive and forced them to consider a tactical retreat. This was however prevented by personal intervention of Gen. Guderian.

and about 3 para's later he states


On the 3rd of September the 23 inf Div was inserted between 3 Pz Div which had pushed to the Vistula, and the 20 (Mot) Inf Div, by this maneuver they succeeded in totally encircling the enemy on our front in the wooded country north of Schwetz and west of Graudenz. The Polish Pomorska Brigade, in ignorance of the nature of our tanks, had charged them with swords and lances and had suffered tremendous losses.

Was not there, and can only go by what I read and see.

 

[redleafjumper]

3rd Herd's account when combined with Guderian's Panzer Leader account  looks good to me.  It seems that Guderian's comment on the presence of tanks does not seem to ring with the same authority as the rest of his writing.  Regardless, at least according to the earlier first-hand account, Poles on horses certainly charged a motorized column which included a least a few armoured cars.

The defence of Poland was a very brave effort from a country with a strong cavalry tradition in the face of great opposing odds.

 

[pbi]

The Polish Pomorska Brigade, in ignorance of the nature of our tanks, had charged them with swords and lances and had suffered tremendous losses.

I still find this very, very unlikely, regardless of the fact that Guderian apparently accepted the speculation by somebody at a lower level. It simply does not make sense to claim this as a reason. On the other hand, while I am quite familiar with the Krojanty incident (it is on the Polish Grudziadz site I provided-Grudziadz was the home garrison of the unit involved), I think that it is probably the only really detailed and substantiated account I have ever seen. The circumstances it describes are quite believable, and could easily be imagined in the heat of close combat. What I cannot imagine, even for a minute (see the reasons I gave in my earlier post) is that the Poles would have charged German tanks because they were "ignorant of their true nature".

Having said that, the entire Polish Campaign bears serious and detailed re-looking. In my opinion, so much of what passes for "conventional wisdom" or "received knowledge", and appears in pop histories, is just the repetition of hoary old myths and propaganda (from both sides...) that has lingered till today. If you begin by examining the history of the politico-strategic relationship since Poland was re-formed after WWII (not, as is commonly assumed, just as a result of the Versailles Treaty but largely through the efforts of leaders such as Pilsudski and Paderewski) you will see that the idea of the Poles being "surprised", either strategically or tactically, by the Germans, is a bit hard to swallow. Both countries regarded each other as enemies from the get-go, and planned accordingly. It is impossible to believe that the Poles would not have done all they could to keep an eye on the Germans. I have read that on the night of the German "false start" invasion in late August (Hitler changed his mind at the last minute, and the "halt" order arrived too late for some units), the Poles were alert, ready and waiting and captured the hapless Germans. The Polish airforce, well aware of what was coming, began dispersal operations several days before the German D-Day and as a result the PAF was able to fight on bravely for about two-three weeks, including launching ground attacks against German forces. The "destruction of the PAF on the ground " that we always read about was the destruction of training machines and hangar queens left behind. There's lot's more like this, but you have to dig around. The US Army official history of the campaign is a good starting point.

Cheers