Question about monthly limit on Class A pay for Reservists

[devsnrnco]

I have a few questions about Class A pay and was hoping that any provided answers could include a reference to source documentation. I've received so many different answers from my CoC, BOR, different units, etc on this topic and have ended up doing a ton of pro bono admin as a result. I'll need source documentation because having the correct answers given to me on a forum won't be of much help, as I'll need to reference policies if the information discovered here reveals a discrepancy with my unit's business practices.

1. Is the monthly limit on Class A pay 12 or 15 days? My BOR tells me it's 15, but this document says 12: https://www.cafconnection.ca/getmedia/061d1d28-5da0-42bf-b14f-1a22ad36b75e/Reservists-Booklet.aspx

2. Is the monthly limit on Class A pay specifically for full days or is it for number of pay sheets submitted? I've always been told that a half day counts as a day insofar as the monthly cap is concerned, but this makes no sense to me and I'm convinced that 2 half days should count as 1 day when it comes to respecting the cap. Therefore, IMO, it should be possible to submit some combination of, say 20-30 different half/full day sheets in a given month.

I have gone though the documents below but could not find the necessary answers:

- Chapter 204 - Pay of Officers & Non-Commissioned Members - Canada.ca

- CF Mil Pers Instr

 

[brihard]

If they won’t pay you, don’t work. “Pro Bono” admin isn’t a thing that should exist. Your unit, as the employer, should adequately fund and resource the problem, and if they’re risking exceeding the Class A limits, the chain of command should properly address the problem by requesting authorization at the appropriate levels. When you work for free, you let them kick the problem down the road.

 

[Haggis]

If they won’t pay you, don’t work. “Pro Bono” admin isn’t a thing that should exist.

I'm guessing you're too young to remember pink pay sheets.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I am uncertain what the actual upper limit of Class A per month, is. Some of it seems to depends which service you belong to. The RCAF standard seems to be 12 days/month, with the ability to go to 14 days if the overall pay budget allows for it. This comes with some caveats. You should not work 5 consecutive days without a day off, unless you have CoC permission (like you intend on taking the second half of a month off for holidays, so want all of your days front loaded). The theory is that if you work a full week, routinely, your CoC should be placing you on Class B- so it is for your protection against being abused.

I have never seen or heard of a half day pay sheet limit, so long as you don’t exceed the total number of days authorized in a month and, I suppose, work 5 consecutive half days in a row.

Keep in mind, I am a simple user of the Class A system and not an Administrator of it, so others may be more knowledgeable than me.

 

[Haggis]

A member can work up to 12 consecutive days. Anything beyond that should be Class B. Only the Army sets a limit on how many cumulative days per month a member may work. I believe it's 16.

I'm sure someone else will be along shortly to clarify if "a day is a day".

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm guessing you're too young to remember pink pay sheets.

Dude... anyone who isn't just about first in line for a COVID shot doesn't remember pink pay sheets.

I'm so old I thought we'd signed blue ones too?

 

[devsnrnco]

I'm guessing you're too young to remember pink pay sheets.

I joined in 2010 so nope I've definitely never heard of those lol

 

[devsnrnco]

If they won’t pay you, don’t work. “Pro Bono” admin isn’t a thing that should exist. Your unit, as the employer, should adequately fund and resource the problem, and if they’re risking exceeding the Class A limits, the chain of command should properly address the problem by requesting authorization at the appropriate levels. When you work for free, you let them kick the problem down the road.

Unfortunately it's not always that straightforward. I'm often dealing with fastballs while at home in a "work now and sign in later" situation. I can't just dig my heels in and say "can't do it until I'm signed in" or else I'd be screwing over my subordinates, making them miss out on courses, being late on administering PDRs effectively for disciplinary issues, failing the RSM when time-sensitive returns are required, and so many more situations where I'd quickly earn a reputation as a shitpump leader. Maybe I'll develop that level of stubbornness in a few years once my GAFF has inevitably worn off lol

 

[devsnrnco]

I am uncertain what the actual upper limit of Class A per month, is. Some of it seems to depends which service you belong to. The RCAF standard seems to be 12 days/month, with the ability to go to 14 days if the overall pay budget allows for it. This comes with some caveats. You should not work 5 consecutive days without a day off, unless you have CoC permission (like you intend on taking the second half of a month off for holidays, so want all of your days front loaded). The theory is that if you work a full week, routinely, your CoC should be placing you on Class B- so it is for your protection against being abused.

I have never seen or heard of a half day pay sheet limit, so long as you don’t exceed the total number of days authorized in a month and, I suppose, work 5 consecutive half days in a row.

Keep in mind, I am a simple user of the Class A system and not an Administrator of it, so others may be more knowledgeable than me.

Ok I should have specified this in my original post. I try to keep things as general as possible because I don't want to identify myself or my unit. This would be for Army Reserve. Those caveats you mentioned - any idea where they are spelled out in detail? I'm trying to fit in a bunch of paysheets before end of FY but it's hard without knowing all the BS rules that we never receive any sort of training for (or maybe it's explained on BMQ but who the hell remembers death by powerpoint while sleep fked).

 

[ModlrMike]

Maximum permissible Class A is 120 days per year. There is a secondary limit of 12 continuous days per month. This means that one could in theory work 24 five day weeks in a row.

Unit orderly rooms should combine 1/2 day paysheets on the same day into a single day when entering the pay. If you're doing work between normal parade timings, perhaps the monthly paysheet is a better option for tracking that.

I don't have the reference document to hand, but I believe there is a MilPersInstr on the subject.

 

[brihard]

Ok I should have specified this in my original post. I try to keep things as general as possible because I don't want to identify myself or my unit. This would be for Army Reserve. Those caveats you mentioned - any idea where they are spelled out in detail? I'm trying to fit in a bunch of paysheets before end of FY but it's hard without knowing all the BS rules that we never receive any sort of training for (or maybe it's explained on BMQ but who the hell remembers death by powerpoint while sleep fked).

I meant that in the sense of having an agreement with the chain of command that admin will be compensated fairly. I remember as a section commander while going to university I’d frequently field fastballs, and I think that administratively I was a pretty effective leader. But my unit played ball, and would let us sign for a half day periodically to comp us for that stuff, on top of our weekly admin/lesson prep night.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Maximum permissible Class A is 120 days per year. There is a secondary limit of 12 continuous days per month. This means that one could in theory work 24 five day weeks in a row.

Unit orderly rooms should combine 1/2 day paysheets on the same day into a single day when entering the pay. If you're doing work between normal parade timings, perhaps the monthly paysheet is a better option for tracking that.

I don't have the reference document to hand, but I believe there is a MilPersInstr on the subject.

Again, that maximum yearly limit seems to be malleable between Services. In the RCAF, as a Class A reservist I work at least 144 days Class A/year (12 x 12).

I do find it humorous that each service declares that they have the only legal way of paying reservists...

 

[Remius]

I meant that in the sense of having an agreement with the chain of command that admin will be compensated fairly. I remember as a section commander while going to university I’d frequently field fastballs, and I think that administratively I was a pretty effective leader. But my unit played ball, and would let us sign for a half day periodically to comp us for that stuff, on top of our weekly admin/lesson prep night.

Same. But I remember in 2010 when they froze and limited class A pay, our CoC was still pushing people to do work. Our ops officer kept tasking me to provide returns for him. I asked about pay and he said no pay so I sent him my nominal roll and told him he could do it since he was being paid. After that he found a way to get me the class A to do it.

 

[Kilted]

Does anyone know what happens if you go over the Class A limit in any given month? For example, if you end up working for multiply organizations (for example Battle School) and all the pay sheets arent submitted till after the month is over?

 

[brihard]

Does anyone know what happens if you go over the Class A limit in any given month? For example, if you end up working for multiply organizations (for example Battle School) and all the pay sheets arent submitted till after the month is over?

It’s the army, so I’m assuming some NCO will be quick to tell you “people die!”

In practice, if anyone both notices AND cares, an email may be sent within the admin chain and someone will “oh, oops” it and you’ll be told in future to deconflict and advise your chain if you might come close.

 

[Haggis]

I joined in 2010 so nope I've definitely never heard of those lol

"Back in the day" unit leadership used to do training and admin on a voluntary basis. We used pink pay sheets so that if a member suffered an injury or illness they would be considered on duty. At the end of the training year, if there was any money left in the budget, those pink pay sheets would be sumitted for payment. Unit budgets were much smaller back then. But so was the admin burden on the units. Today, higher HQs demand incessant RFIs and
seem unable to send out anything that doesn't contain the phrase "regret short notice".

 

[daftandbarmy]

"Back in the day" unit leadership used to do training and admin on a voluntary basis. We used pink pay sheets so that if a member suffered an injury or illness they would be considered on duty. At the end of the training year, if there was any money left in the budget, those pink pay sheets would be sumitted for payment. Unit budgets were much smaller back then. But so was the admin burden on the units. Today, higher HQs demand incessant RFIs and
seem unable to send out anything that doesn't contain the phrase "regret short notice".

And, fun fact, none of this 'volunteer' time was recorded in any fancy schmancy 'system' so it will never count against any pension calculations etc.

 

[Haggis]

And, fun fact, none of this 'volunteer' time was recorded in any fancy schmancy 'system' so it will never count against any pension calculations etc.

Because "back in the day" no one even considered making a part-time job a pensionable endeavour. That these volunteer days may need to be counted as earned towards something, anything other than a CD was just "out there".

On a related note I recall reading a Briefing Note that had been sent to my boss when I worked in HR-Mil proposing that a wholesale change to the calculation of CD eligibility should be done for Reservists based on "a day is a day", meaning a Reservist would have to accumulate 4380 real days of service before being eligible for a CD. This was during the days when they were still trying to figure out how to determine pension eligibility for Reservists and how to calculate Class A Reserve service.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Because "back in the day" no one even considered making a part-time job a pensionable endeavour. That these volunteer days may need to be counted as earned towards something, anything other than a CD was just "out there".

On a related note I recall reading a Briefing Note that had been sent to my boss when I worked in HR-Mil proposing that a wholesale change to the calculation of CD eligibility should be done for Reservists based on "a day is a day", meaning a Reservist would have to accumulate 4380 real days of service EMAILS before being eligible for a CD. This was during the days when they were still trying to figure out how to determine pension eligibility for Reservists and how to calculate Class A Reserve service.

FTFY... that would be a much more realistic target to hit

 

[Blackadder1916]

On a related note I recall reading a Briefing Note that had been sent to my boss when I worked in HR-Mil proposing that a wholesale change to the calculation of CD eligibility should be done for Reservists based on "a day is a day", meaning a Reservist would have to accumulate 4380 real days of service before being eligible for a CD. This was during the days when they were still trying to figure out how to determine pension eligibility for Reservists and how to calculate Class A Reserve service.

And in keeping with "heritage and tradition" then calculation for Reg Force CDs should change to the eligibility requirements that existed when there were separate long service medals and decorations for regular and reserve. When the single medal for all was selected, the 12 year requirement came from the Efficiency Medal (and Decoration for officers) which was the award for Reservists (clasps were for additional 6 years); Regulars (other ranks only) received the LS&GC for 18 years service (plus 10 more for the clasp), Regular officers got nothing.