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Québec Election: 7 Apr 14

Edward Campbell

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The media is reporting that Premier Marois asked the LG to dissolve the legislature and drop the writs for a provincial general election on 7 Apr 14.

Recent polls indicate a PQ majority is possible.
 
She's going to win a strong majority I think.  She's also throwing the sovereignty card upfront so she can claim she has a mandate to hold a referendum.  These old dinosaurs are on their last breath for this. 

I think the CPC should just keep quiet, let the election pass and deal with any referendum talk when it it actually comes to it happening.

It might actually become an issue for the 2015 federal election: Who is best placed to deal with Quebec in the advent of a possible referendum on sovereignty.
 
I agree with Crantor.

What I've been reading/hearing suggests that she has played the identity card quite well. It has worked with the people she needs ~ older Francophone Quebecers ~ in the ridings she needs to 'turn.'

The economy appears to be the key issue for a majority of Quebecers and it should be Premier Marois' weak suit, but ... the statist and soft socialist model, which is the primary source of QC's productivity problems, is very popular and deeply entrenched in la belle province.

As to playing the sovereignty card early, it is also to blunt the Liberal's biggest weapon: separation fatigue. When they try to raise it the PQ will just  :dunno: saying, "what's the problem? Yeah, we're gonna have a referendum ... maybe ... when there are "winning conditions."

I also agree that the CPC should just watch and wait ... silence, respect for Québec's right to decide its own future in its own way, is the best policy. When it comes to the national general election I think Prime Minister Harper will be able to play the referendum card in Ontario, where he needs to best M. Trudeau.
 
Crantor said:
It might actually become an issue for the 2015 federal election: Who is best placed to deal with Quebec in the advent of a possible referendum on sovereignty.

If a referendum becomes an issue for the 2015 election there will probably be little said in public by any of the leaders. Their comments on the subject would likely have to support the No side, and be construed by the PQ government as meddling in their internal affairs. Notwithstanding that a separation vote clearly also involves the ROC.

That being said, if the vote is already done and the Yes side wins, then there are perhaps different considerations which I think give Mr Harper an outright advantage. Of course Marois could schedule the vote for the same time as the federal election and throw a frak into everything, but that might be a bit too Machiavellian even for her.

So, given the foregoing, here's a short scorecard from the ROC perspective (solely relative to the subject at hand):

Trudeau: Quebec roots (negative), wishy-washy policy vis-a-vis separation (negative), generally seen by ROC as weak and superficial (negative)
Muclair: Quebec roots (negative), party owes its current place in Parliament to Quebec (negative), clear policy on vote requirement (positive), generally seen as strong in Quebec (positive)
Harper: not from Quebec (positive), generally seen by ROC and Quebec as strong (positive), clear policy on separation (positive)

Feel free to disagree with my scoring results.
 
Crantor said:
She's going to win a strong majority I think.  She's also throwing the sovereignty card upfront so she can claim she has a mandate to hold a referendum.  These old dinosaurs are on their last breath for this. 

I think the CPC should just keep quiet, let the election pass and deal with any referendum talk when it it actually comes to it happening.

It might actually become an issue for the 2015 federal election: Who is best placed to deal with Quebec in the advent of a possible referendum on sovereignty.

The ROC is tired of the same ole, same ole.  The ROC will most likely welcome a referendum on separation and gladly bid Quebec "bonne journée" and "Bon voyage".  If Marois gets her majority and passes Bill 14, the only Anglos left in Quebec will be the elderly who do not have the means to leave.  The ethnic cleansing will be a fait accompli. 

Quebec will be a richer province by it, richer than Alberta, after they tap all their oil and natural gas reserves.  The ROC will no longer have a 'spoiled child' whining for handouts and special treatment, and will see benefits in the reductions in administration costs and money transfers.  There would be no real losers in Separation. 
 
Michael den Tandt, in this column which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the National Post, suggests that a superficial reading of the impact on the 2015 election suggests that M. Trudeau's Liberals will benefit most from a PQ majority and a (threat of a) referendum, but he concludes that, on deeper analysis those factors may well favour the Conservatives:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/03/04/michael-den-tandt-as-we-head-into-a-quebec-provincial-election-welcome-to-national-unity-crisis-3-0/
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As we head into a Quebec provincial election, welcome to National Unity Crisis 3.0

Michael Den Tandt

March 4, 2014

Dear Canada; Your long rest is over. Welcome to National Unity Crisis 3.0.

As we head into a Quebec provincial election, with the separatist Parti Quebecois in a position to win a majority, this much can be taken as given; the response in the rest of Canada to any resulting new push for independence will be quite different from last time, or the time before that. There will be no candle in the window — no heartfelt plea from Main Street Ontario, imploring Quebecers to vote “Non.” If anything, the opposite could occur.

That means the tectonic plates underlying Canadian politics may be about to move, rather dramatically, after two decades of relative calm. Justin Trudeau’s Liberals seem best positioned, for now, to convert a crisis into votes. Nationalism being the unpredictable beast it is, that could change in a heartbeat. But here is what Quebecers should not expect, if they give Premier Pauline Marois the whip hand; anything but a cold shoulder, brusque dismissal and stony silence from across the Ottawa River. That’s the best-case scenario.

Let’s assume Marois wins big, jolting a bolt of electricity through the embalmed corpse of the independence movement, and setting in motion the mechanics of another referendum. Just as during the Meech and Charlottetown debates a generation ago, political elites and the chattering classes will seek to shepherd public opinion in the ROC (Rest of Canada) into a conciliatory frame of mind. They will argue, as they are wont to do, that we’re all much better off together than apart. They will be right about that. But their soothing ode will fall on millions of deaf ears.

The reason is threefold. First, Ontarians formed the bedrock of the pro-unity side, outside Quebec, in the old national unity debates. But the Ontario of today is far different from the one of the latter 20th Century. Its manufacturing economy has been decimated. In 2009/10 the province joined the have-nots under the federal equalization formula — receiving $347-million. This year Ontario is to receive just over $3-billion; Quebec, just under $8-billion.

Indeed Quebec, Conservative Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Denis Lebel helpfully pointed out Monday, “receives $16.3-billion more from the federal government than it contributes to Ottawa.” Nice. Resentment of Quebec’s endless gripes has always bubbled just below the waterline in Ontario. With so many in the province struggling, expect that to surface.

Another factor is the reason for Marois’ recent surge to front-runner status; Quebec’s proposed Charter of Values, which would dictate to provincial civil servants what articles of religious clothing or jewelry they may and may not wear on the job. When the Charter was unveiled last summer, the enlightened consensus was that Quebecers would en masse reject and punish such an unabashed appeal to their baser instincts. The opposite has happened.

There’s been much hand-wringing about the damage this has done Quebec’s reputation internationally; not enough attention paid, likely, to the potential impact on individual opinion in Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia of one province’s majority, through democratic choice, placing itself offside of the pluralism that animates the rest of the country, as reflected in the Charter of Rights. If Marois wins her majority, Quebec truly will be a distinct society.

Third is the intangible Law of Threes; the sense, already germinating in the aftermath of the 1995 referendum, that the country cannot regularly be held hostage and hijacked by a minority of its population — now a minority within a minority. In the face of a third referendum, the political pressure from Main Street in the rest of Canada to push back — possibly even via a movement for a nationwide referendum on whether Quebec should be handed its hat, and don’t let the door hit you on the way out — would be impossible to ignore.

For the time being Trudeau, by virtue of his fluency in both official languages, strong base in Quebec, clear stand against the Charter from its inception, and the separatist-battling mantle of his late father, is best positioned to take on the role of Captain Canada. Opposition leader Thomas Mulcair served notice in a CBC Radio interview last weekend that he also intends to vie for the part, saying that “the NDP was the first party get rid of the separatists.”

The wild card is simply this: The Tories hold just five seats in Quebec and the totality of their majority rests on a still-new coalition between Alberta and rural and suburban Ontario. Their precursor party, Reform, was born in a lather of anti-Quebec feeling spurred by the Mulroney government’s failed overtures to Quebec soft nationalists.

The stage could soon be set, therefore, for the governing party to become the preferred vehicle for anyone who is resentful of yet another tussle over Quebec. Given the Harper government’s advanced age and desperate need for a new mission, it’s difficult to imagine it passing up such an opportunity.


I agree with Mr den Tandt: Captain Canada will not play this time around. Canadians, generally, are indifferent to the loss of Québec ... in fact some will not even see it as a loss. That indifference is grounded, as is so much in Canadian political thought, on a profound ignorance of economics, but it is there, all the same.

But: I don't think National Unity Crisis 3.0 is going to matter very much. I think Quebecers are almost content with their independent place in Canada ~ and I think that the Québec Charter of Values will make them even more comfortable. Many (most?) Franchphone Quebecers have already separated; Canada, for them, is what so many Europeans want the EU to become: a superstate that looks after things like the common currency and defence and trade policy but allows the member states, which is how those Quebecers see Québec, go their own ways on the really important social issues. In fact, I think further evolution or devolution in that direction (towards greater and greater provincial independence) is a good thing for Canada.

My guess is that a combination of Québec's contentment and Canadian indifference will mean that the next neverendum (never ending referendum) will fail, yet again.
 
ModlrMike said:
So, given the foregoing, here's a short scorecard from the ROC perspective (solely relative to the subject at hand):

Trudeau: Quebec roots (negative), wishy-washy policy vis-a-vis separation (negative), generally seen by ROC as weak and superficial (negative)
Muclair: Quebec roots (negative), party owes its current place in Parliament to Quebec (negative), clear policy on vote requirement (positive), generally seen as strong in Quebec (positive)
Harper: not from Quebec (positive), generally seen by ROC and Quebec as strong (positive), clear policy on separation (positive)

Feel free to disagree with my scoring results.

Would the fact that both Trudeau and Muclair are Quebecers with vested interests not disqualify them from any negotiations that would be involved with Separation, as that would be seen as a conflict of interests.  Of course they would not be negotiating on the side of Canadians, but on the side of the Separationists.  It would therefore be a one sided negotiation, not two sided; Quebecers negotiating with Quebecers, not Quebecers negotiating with Canadians on what Quebec takes with her when she leaves.
 
George Wallace said:
The ROC is tired of the same ole, same ole.  The ROC will most likely welcome a referendum on separation and gladly bid Quebec "bonne journée" and "Bon voyage".  If Marois gets her majority and passes Bill 14, the only Anglos left in Quebec will be the elderly who do not have the means to leave.  The ethnic cleansing will be a fait accompli. 

Quebec will be a richer province by it, richer than Alberta, after they tap all their oil and natural gas reserves.  The ROC will no longer have a 'spoiled child' whining for handouts and special treatment, and will see benefits in the reductions in administration costs and money transfers.  There would be no real losers in Separation.


While I agree that your argument represents the Canadian norm, George, your conclusion is  :bullshit:

If we allow Québec to leave we get saddled with 100% of our national debt being repaid by only 77% of the people who ran it up. Québec will not "take away" any of the national debt for the simple reason that it will be a poor little country unable to sell its bonds on the market. Plus we, the rump of Canada will still be on the hook for old age pensions, and, and, and, and ... nearly ad infinitum for seven million foreigners, who will still have Canadian citizenship until they die. And rest assured our Supremes will not let us strip them of it.

There will be a huge price to be paid, by Quebecers and Canadians, if Québec declares independence.
 
PQ will get back in simply because there is no competition.....
 
Interesting score card Modmike.

I'm not sure I agree though.

It is likely that a referendum would happen after the 2015 election (but not long after).

The CPC, and more specifically the PM, is not liked in Quebec.  At all.  Which is ironic given that they are all in favour of giving the Provinces (all of them) more powers.  In fact the CPC has been conceding many things to Quebec (and not to appease them, just that it happens to be in sync with their philosophy).

Being from Quebec is not necessarily a negative.  It may actually be a positive when you are trying to convince Quebecers not to leave confederation.  It's a bit harder for a speratist to accuse their opposition of not knowing what they want or meddling when they are in fact from there.

I'm not sure if the ROC beleives that Trudeau is weak and superficial.  Most I think, and including Quebecers (who seem to like him if you belive the polls) are blind to that.  The media, the CPC and political junkies might see that but I'm not sure about the ROC.  If he courts the youth vote and the Franco vote he might be well placed.  THE PROBLEM THOUGH WILL BE HIS MOUTH FILTER.

Mulcair will not see another Orange Crush.  Plus he has known sovereigntists in his own party.

The thing is, if the PQ win a majority, Quebec as a whole may vote differently at the Federal level (historically they are known for this dual bloc voting phenomenon).  I can't foresee that they would vote en masse for the CPC.  The NDP without Jack Layton will likely not be an option.  Which could mean that teh province as whole would vote Liberal as a counter to Pauline Marois and her majority to bring that balance they seem to enjoy.

As Mr. Campbell indicated, the key will be who can convince Ontario, who would be the better person to face off against a possible referendum.  The Economy was to be front and center for the next election but this might trump that.

I don't think a PQ Government with a referendum mandate will be ignored by any leader.  I don't think any of them can afford to be seen as complacent.  Someone will fire the first shot and take that lead and all of them will fall in with there reasons why the other guy shouldn't be the guy to lead against this.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
........your conclusion is  :bullshit:

If we allow Québec to leave we get saddled with 100% of our national debt being repaid by only 77% of the people who ran it up. Québec will not "take away" any of the national debt for the simple reason that it will be a poor little country unable to sell its bonds on the market. Plus we, the rump of Canada will still be on the hook for old age pensions, and, and, and, and ... nearly ad infinitum for seven million foreigners, who will still have Canadian citizenship until they die. And rest assured our Supremes will not let us strip them of it.

There will be a huge price to be paid, by Quebecers and Canadians, if Québec declares independence.

It will all depend on how and who is doing the negotiations.  Of course if we are in the position that Quebecers are negotiating with Quebecers, then the above will be a reality and the ROC will be given the shaft.  If we have a strong negotiator from the ROC 'cutting' off all Quebec's ties with the ROC and dividing all Debt according to the proper percentages, then there will be no such problems.    Quebec can not have, nor should they have, any debts forgiven; and those will have to be a factor in negotiations.  I do agree with the point that those who have earned a Pension in the CAF and Public Service, should continue to collect.  However, for other Quebecers, Quebec already manages their own pensions and taxes.  They will not be entitled to Canadian Passports, Canadian currency or any other connection to Canada.  "You want to separate, you separate...Full Stop."  This will mean it must be a complete severance, not a case of "friends with benefits".  That is utter BS.  There will be no place for the ROC to play the role of "Mr Nice Guy" in any negotiations on Separation.  The question now is: do we have the strong willed statesmen capable of bringing this all about without the huge costs E.R.C. points out?
 
George Wallace said:
It will all depend on how and who is doing the negotiations.  Of course if we are in the position that Quebecers are negotiating with Quebecers, then the above will be a reality and the ROC will be given the shaft.  If we have a strong negotiator from the ROC 'cutting' off all Quebec's ties with the ROC and dividing all Debt according to the proper percentages, then there will be no such problems.    Quebec can not have, nor should they have, any debts forgiven; and those will have to be a factor in negotiations.  I do agree with the point that those who have earned a Pension in the CAF and Public Service, should continue to collect.  However, for other Quebecers, Quebec already manages their own pensions and taxes.  They will not be entitled to Canadian Passports, Canadian currency or any other connection to Canada.  "You want to separate, you separate...Full Stop."  This will mean it must be a complete severance, not a case of "friends with benefits".  That is utter BS.  There will be no place for the ROC to play the role of "Mr Nice Guy" in any negotiations on Separation.  The question now is: do we have the strong willed statesmen capable of bringing this all about without the huge costs E.R.C. points out?


The bonds that make up our national debt are Canadian bonds, issued by Canada and repayable by Canada. There is no disputing that. It is our, Canadian, debt. If QC separates it is still Canada's debt .. there are just fewer Canadians to share it.

Québec already has its own national debt and it will be hard pressed to cover that. The new nation-state will not have the fiscal capacity to take on a share of our debt. It's a dead issue. We can exact promises, but Québec wil not be able to keep them ... it will be a Northern Argentina.

Quebecers who were born in Canada will, in all likelihood remain entitled to Canadian citizenship under the same rules that permit dual citizenship, today, for others.

An independent Québec can use whatever currency it wants. It would be unwise to adopt our dollar because we would, certainly, not allow that new nation to have any voice at all in our fiscal or monetary policies. They can have a peso of some sort ... see Northern Argentina, again.
 
George Wallace said:
It will all depend on how and who is doing the negotiations.  Of course if we are in the position that Quebecers are negotiating with Quebecers, then the above will be a reality and the ROC will be given the shaft.  If we have a strong negotiator from the ROC 'cutting' off all Quebec's ties with the ROC and dividing all Debt according to the proper percentages, then there will be no such problems.    Quebec can not have, nor should they have, any debts forgiven; and those will have to be a factor in negotiations.  I do agree with the point that those who have earned a Pension in the CAF and Public Service, should continue to collect.  However, for other Quebecers, Quebec already manages their own pensions and taxes.  They will not be entitled to Canadian Passports, Canadian currency or any other connection to Canada.  "You want to separate, you separate...Full Stop."  This will mean it must be a complete severance, not a case of "friends with benefits".  That is utter BS.  There will be no place for the ROC to play the role of "Mr Nice Guy" in any negotiations on Separation.  The question now is: do we have the strong willed statesmen capable of bringing this all about without the huge costs E.R.C. points out?

George you are wrong on several fronts.  You can't strip Quebecers of their citizenship or their passports.  Even if they seperate they are still Canadian Citizens like it or not.  Just like any other dual citizen. They can use the currency all they want.  Nothing prevents that.  But they really won't be independant but rather dependant on Canada's monetary policy which not be ligned up with theirs. 

We have way more to lose than to gain by this.
 
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/03/05/jonathan-kay-if-quebec-separates-we-keep-montreal/

....so, move Bagotville's stuff to St-Hubert and Valcartier/VDQ to the Eastern Townships?  >:D
 
I hope Pauline and her party fall flat on their face, but I fear it won't.
 
If "Quebec" separates, do we really lose "all" of Quebec?

My understanding of the 1995 referendum is that a few high-population areas (Montreal and Laval) did not want to separate from Canada. Geographically, most of Quebec wanted to separate, but the southern, urbanized places didn't.

Can't we just keep Montreal et al and let Northern Quebec go (if this were to happen again, which I suspect it would)? Would this be part of the "negotiations?"

I see no reason why we would have to pay Quebeckers their Old-age pension... Quebec has the Q.P.P. and does not contribute to the C.P.P?

Also, WRT bonds, yes, they are Canadian bonds issued by the Government of Canada... but two questions on that... the first one being, you can "sell" debt just like you can sell assets... While I understand the bond-holders would want a higher interest rate if we sold some of our debt to Quebec, this could be negotiated to get rid of some of it, no?

Secondly, I don't now how much we currently pay interest on our debt. But, when you consider Quebec's current economic status, and the ridiculous proportion of equalization payments it receives.... is it not possible that we could still be better off shouldering the debt between 77% of the current population, considering we wouldn't be paying equalization payments out of @$$ to the Quebeckers? I guess I'd need to really sit down and look at the numbers for this but it seems plausible.
 
Quebecers born after separation would no longer be entitled to Canadian citizenship.  Not that they would care for about 18-20 years, but they would be on their own.  Newfoundland could build a new hydro project upstream of the Great Whale, and ship cheap hydro back to the Rock, leveraging all its Hibernia income.  The Canadian currency would be fun to refresh...perhaps the Plains of Abraham on the back of the $20 bill?  Queen on all the bills?  The Maple Leafs scoring on the Habs on the back of the $5 bill? ;D

 
>Plus we, the rump of Canada will still be on the hook...

Make no assumptions about anything except who is liable for debt issued by the GoC, including no assumptions about "who" might be pressured to take on some of that debt in their own interests and no assumptions about the size of the new nation of Quebec.  Everything will be on the table during the separation "negotiation", and Quebec will have no place at the table at the subsequent constitutional convention after it separates and the feds and provinces see the size of the resulting liabilities and set about rewriting laws - constitutional and otherwise - as necessary.  The composition of Parliament will also be remarkably altered.  The Supreme Court interprets laws, but it has to interpret them according to what is there.

It might have to wait until after the next federal election "mandate" is delivered, but Quebec - and citizens of Canada who elect to remain in Quebec to collect rents they no longer pay - can be cut off, full stop, to do their own muddling along in the confines of what used to be Lower Canada.  All it takes is enough anger in each average voter.  Anger won't be hard to provoke; the average voter isn't going to trouble himself to listen to - let alone comprehend - "nuanced" arguments from some sub-sections of the political elite as to why he should have to endure anything he perceives as an injustice.
 
Dimsum said:
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/03/05/jonathan-kay-if-quebec-separates-we-keep-montreal/

....so, move Bagotville's stuff to St-Hubert and Valcartier/VDQ to the Eastern Townships?  >:D

In a similar vein, the FN of Quebec have long held that if Quebec has the right to separate from Canada, they have the right to separate from Quebec. A very thorny, acrimonious, and possibly explosive situation.
 
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