Posting Policy-Restricted (IR) & Prohibited moves [MERGED]

[maniac779]

Is there anyone out there who would consider themselves a SME or well acquainted with non-IRP move? (a move handled through the OR, not Royal Lepage)

 

[dapaterson]

To my knowledge, if you're moving and the Crown is paying for it, it will go through Royal Lepage.  I'm willing to be proven wrong, though...

 

[BinRat55]

I would consider myself well versed in IRP policy, but by no means a SME.  Does your question fall within 2.03:

The CF IRP applies on all postings, whenever members are authorized to move (D) HG&E from one place of duty to another, and only when the new principal residence is a minimum distance of 40 kilometers (by the shortest usual public route) closer to the new workplace.

If so, I just assisted someone with an "internal posting" (which ended up being handled through Royal LePage anyway...)

Shoot the puck...

 

[BinRat55]

To my knowledge, if you're moving and the Crown is paying for it, it will go through Royal Lepage.  I'm willing to be proven wrong, though...

I thought that too... although if you read my above post (exerpt APS 2006 Handbook), the way I read it is that any move UNDER 40 Km will not be looked at by IRP Policy... I could be wrong too... ???

 

[maniac779]

I am asking with regard to a move that is not handled through IRP, so in other words, has no involvement with Royal Lepage...

More specifically, I am refering to moves that are handled under CBI Chapter 209 Section 8. (Where "to whom section 9 -  Integrated Relocation Pilot Program does not apply")

The move not to a different location in the local area.

 

[BinRat55]

Maniac779 - i've scanned all sections of the CBI.  Can you be a little bit more specific with your question - in other words, what IS your question?

 

[Yrys]

There is P.M., you know, if you don't want to be too specific in public  ...


Add : "  "

 

[dapaterson]

My understanding is that CBI 209 Section 8 is present for certain members with vested rights dating back to before the implementation of IRP.  If you are relocated at crown expense it will be under the IRP.

CF IRP 07/08 2.03 reads, in part:

The CF IRP applies on all postings, whenever members are authorized to move (D) HG&E from one place of duty to another, and only when the new principal residence is a minimum distance of 40 kilometers (by the shortest usual public route) closer to the new workplace.
The CF IRP also applies to relocations either for release purposes from outside of Canada and isolated units or to the Intended Place of Residence.
The following types of moves are governed by the CF IRP, but with specific changes outlined in addenda that modify the main document:
• Moves to and from Outside Canada (see addenda 1 & 2);
• Moves to and from Goose Bay (see addendum 7);
• Unaccompanied moves (see addendum 4);
• Movement of a Service Couple (see addendum 5);
• Moves on Cross-postings outside Canada (see addendum 6);
• Moves to Intended Place of Residence (see addenda 3 & 8); and
• Some reserve relocations (see addendum 9).

 

[maniac779]

Disclaimer: Before anyone says “go talk to your OR”, I am not taking anything said here as gospel with regard to my specific situation. Regard this only as a question out of curiosity. In fact, we’ll even pretend like this is a completely hypothetical situation and I am just asking for opinions from occupations that I am aware know more about this than I do.

Lets just say, hypothetically, that I got posted from Thunder Bay to Moose Jaw, with the pertinent details of the message as follows.

4A. MOVE OF DF & E RESTRICTED IAW CFAO 209-28 PARA 37. CERT IAW FAA 32.

B. UPON RECEIPT OF THIS POSTING INSTRUCTION,YOU ARE DIRECTED TO CONTACT YOUR WING ORDERLY ROOM OR AREA SUPPORT UNIT WHO WILL INITIATE YOUR FILE AS A NON CANADIAN FORCES INTEGRATED RELOCATION PROGRAM MOVE (NON CFRIP MOVE).

Upon receipt of the message, I request an HHT, and receive written authorization to conduct one from both the loosing and gaining unit CO’s.

I conduct the HHT and lucky for me, I find a house. I put out an offer, which gets accepted and I start the process. I pay to retain the lawyer and for the home inspection while on the ground.

I return from my HHT, settle the claim for my trip and keep the receipts for the costs already incurred to obtain a replacement residence.

A few days later, the restriction on the move of F&E gets lifted. I call movements and get my move scheduled.

With some special relocation leave taken on the loosing end, my F&E gets packed, moved and I get in my car and drive to Moose Jaw.

On arrival, I visit the OR to finalize my travel claim and raise my move claim. I have all the required documentation. (Receipts, etc.)

I sit down with the clerk with the intention of claiming the following:

- Rent paid for April 2008 (I vacated rented accommodations in Thunder Bay, and the last month’s rent was kept by my landlord as I gave them less than 60 days notice to move)
- All Legal Fees
- Home inspection fee carried out on my HHT
- Mortgage Default Insurance Premium paid in lump sum through lawyer (CMHC fee)

I later have the intention of visiting the OR again with appropriate documentation later to claim the following:

- Utility connection fees (power, heat, cable, water)
- Any automobile/license transfer fees

My question is as follows:

Is the story I told how it goes on Non IRP moves IAW with the reference provided? Is there anything major (entitlements) in the above story that wouldn’t play out that way?

I have read the reference and have interpreted my way, which I think is pretty accurate considering I can read and understand English. However, this is out of my lane. I am not a clerk. I am not going to think I can interpret policy better than someone who has it in their job description. I need help.

Opinions are appreciated.

Thanks very much.

 

[PO2FinClk]

FYI, there are some which IRP still will not move despite initiatives where it had been anticipated they would. For instances unless someone has attained Career Status (QL3) they will not move them until such a time as they do. A few exceptions like those but few and far between.

Don't ask me to confirm these details above as without the file in front of me, it is far to easy to misinterpret any small detail which would lead to a long and confusing post about the same things.

Entitlements on such moves:
Rent/Lease Liability
Rent in Advance of Move
Movement Grant
HHT
Realestate & Legal Fees

 

[BinRat55]

B. UPON RECEIPT OF THIS POSTING INSTRUCTION,YOU ARE DIRECTED TO CONTACT YOUR WING ORDERLY ROOM OR AREA SUPPORT UNIT WHO WILL INITIATE YOUR FILE AS A NON CANADIAN FORCES INTEGRATED RELOCATION PROGRAM MOVE (NON CFRIP MOVE).

Wow - that's a good one.  I can honestly say that i've never seen that.  My first posting was in 1990 (pre-IRP) and from what I remember it was quite similar (I never bought a house though).  The upside to your situation is anything DND does NOT cover, Revenue Canada may.  I'm interested to know how it goes though...

 

[George Wallace]

There must be more to this than has been published here.  You must have made some sort of move or action that was out of the ordinary or not "sanctioned" to get into this predicament.

Were you a Reservist who made a Move on your own, not authorized by the CF to your current location before doing a CT?

Is your current location the listed location of your F&E?

Have you been allowed one move already, and are now trying to make a second move?

Are you in a "No Cost Posting" situation?

Are you on a "Imposed Restriction" Posting?

I am just trying to figure out what extreme twist of fate has put you in this predicament.

 

[maniac779]

Wow, I knew that Non-CFIRP moves were out of the ordinary, but I didn't realize just how obscure they were until reading the posts here!

I am a RegF Pilot awaiting training. I have been posted to Moose Jaw for BFT. I was moved at public expense to my current location. That move was under the same provisions listed above. (Almost word for word verbatim on my last posting messaged with the exception of the word "restricted")

From what I understand, these are the types of moves that Pilots make until we are winged, while IRP moves are reserved for people who are trained in their occupation. Non-IRP moves are handled entirely through the orderly room and the majority of the claim is made out on a CF52 with the help of your friendly neighborhood clerk. They, as a result of their obscurity, also cause confusion from time to time in the OR and as a result, I am told there is a DCBA inquiry being made regarding my entitlements. I am at this point looking to see if anyone has any knowledge in the mean time.

While I did not buy a house at my current location, I am in the process of purchasing one in Moose Jaw, as I will belong to Moose Jaw until my first operational tour, again, from what I understand.

The heart of my question basically revolves around some funny wording in the regulation under which I am fairly confident is governing I am being moved, which is:

CBI Chapter 209 Section 8; Relocation Expenses. (http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/includes/cbi_coverpage_e.asp?sidesection=6&docid=66)

The phrase in question is bold:

"209.96(5) (Non-reimbursable fees) Expenses such as mortgage finder’s fees, mortgage insurance fees other than mortgage default insurance required to obtain a mortgage and that are reimbursable under subparagraph (2)(c), adjustments on closing such as utilities or municipal taxes or survey costs other than those referred to in subparagraph (2)(c), which are not essential in establishing clear title to the principal residence sold or the replacement residence purchased, are not reimbursable under this instruction."

I read that as, "other than the fees listed here which are not reimbursable, Mortgage Default Insurance (otherwise known as CMHC fees) ARE reimbursable under para (2)(c)"

I however do not interpret rules like this on a regular basis and am wondering if I am right out to lunch.

Comments welcome.

 

[exgunnertdo]

We had a non-IRP move in 2006.  Had not reached career status.  What we learned was that the guiding policy (Treasury Board) is the same for IRP/non-IRP.  There are differences in the way they are administered, but shouldn't result in huge differences in what you get.  The Treasury Board relocation policy can be helpful - http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TBM_113/irp_e.asp

If your question is regarding CMHC fees - I have a fair bit of personal experience with that one.

CMHC fees will not be re-imbursed if it's your first house, or if you voluntarily became a renter after being an owner, then want to buy again.

CMHC fees are re-imbursed if you owned a house with a portable mortgage, were forced to sell that house due to being moved by the CF, and not permitted to purchase at your new location (ie short posting or overseas posting).  On your next posting, you would then be re-imbursed CMHC fees.

My lesson - if you are told at any point that you may not purchase a house (by IRP or the OR, depending) get it in writing, so you can prove on your next move that you weren't allowed to buy.  Learned the hard way - but I won in the end, took almost a year of fighting!

 

[maniac779]

Thanks for the response... PM inbound

Exgunner,

Are we talking about the same CMHC fee? I am referring to mortgage default insurance. I don't know much about buying a house, but I don't understand the logic in denying the reimbursement of the MDI given the circumstances you laid out.

 

[exgunnertdo]

CMHC fees = Mortgage Default Insurance (MDI)

The principle with the reimbursing of MDI is that the CF does not pay fees associated with purchasing a house, per se.  They reimburse fees associated with relocation.  MDI is a reality of life for most people in Canada.  The only way you get out of paying for MDI when you buy a house is having 25% down, which most people do not have.  The CF does not help you buy your first house.  When you buy your first house, you pay the MDI like every other Canadian, then when you move, you port your mortgage to your new house, and you don't have to pay MDI again, it was already paid on that mortage.  The CF reimburses it when you have to pay it again, cause they made you break your mortgage on the last move.

Edited to add:  I'm referring to reimbursement of MDI from Core funding for an IRP move.  To bring it back to the original topic, the main difference in IRP/non-IRP is the Custom and Personalized funding models.  What's funded in Core for IRP should be funded in a non-IRP move.  For an IRP move, there are also circumstances where you can get MDI re-imbursed from Custom or Personalized, but I don't remember the details.

 

[maniac779]

I did check the link you provided and I was confused about the circumstances surrounding the potential reimbursement of personalized and customized items under a non-IRP move.

Since you seem to be a beacon of knowledge on this, is it fair to say that generally speaking, only the core funding is provided on a non-IRP move?

Thanks.

 

[PO2FinClk]

The only way you get out of paying for MDI when you buy a house is having 25% down, which most people do not have.

As of 2007, amount for CMHC is now 20% to be precise.

 

[exgunnertdo]

is it fair to say that generally speaking, only the core funding is provided on a non-IRP move?

That's right.  Example - when we did our non-IRP move, we took the kids on the HHT.  For an IRP move, taking the kids on the HHT is out of custom.  If we had left them at home, we could have claimed the extra child care expenses (which would be core), but since we took them, we paid that out of our pocket (they rode in the van, and stayed in the same hotel room with us, so we were only out the meals, really).

The other main difference is - On IRP, in your personalized package you get a "movement grant" of $650 which is to cover a whole bunch of stuff that isn't specifically claimable.  For a non-IRP move, some of those expenses are supposed to be claimable.

 

[PO2FinClk]

The other main difference is - On IRP, in your personalized package you get a "movement grant" of $650 which is to cover a whole bunch of stuff that isn't specifically claimable.  For a non-IRP move, some of those expenses are supposed to be claimable.

Movement Grant's also exist in non-IRP moves, CBI 209.85 refers:

209.85(2) (Eligibility) An officer or non-commissioned member who is moved other than locally is entitled to
(a) a movement grant of $845, where the member moves furniture or effects, or both, weighing 907 kilograms or more to a new place of duty or to another authorized place under CBI 209.84 - Shipment of Furniture and Effects, 209.9941 - Shipment of Replacement Furniture and Effects, 209.9942 - Movement of Dependants, Furniture and Effects – Personnel Reinstated – Regular Force or 209.90 - Movement of Dependants, Furniture and Effects to Other Than the Place of Duty of the Officer or Non-commissioned Member;
(b) a movement grant of $260, where the member moves furniture or effects, or both, weighing less than 907 kilograms to a new place of duty or to another authorized place under an instruction listed in subparagraph (a);
(c) a movement grant of $260, where the member is prohibited from moving furniture or effects, or both, to a new place of duty or to another authorized place and stores either furniture or effects, or both, regardless of weight under CBI 209.84; or
(d) actual and reasonable incidental relocation expenses not exceeding $260 as supported by receipts, where the member moves effects to a new place of duty or to another authorized place under CBI 209.9952.

209.85(3) (Maximum reimbursement) An officer or non-commissioned member who receives the movement grant under subparagraph (2)(b) or (c) or is compensated for relocation expenses undersubparagraph (2)(d) may be reimbursed to a maximum of $585 for any actual and reasonable incidental relocation expenses in excess of $260, as supported by receipts, incurred as a result of the move.