Posting Policy-Out of Canada (OUTCAN) [MERGED]

[AWife]

I am completely new here, but am searching for advice.

There is a possibility for an outcan posting for my family, I am the wife (Hence username) and hubby is the memeber. Can someone give me pointers on what to expect if we accept the posting. EI, housing, vehicles, work and everything that goes along. I am truly going into this blind at the moment and want to have it all worked out in my mind before we say yes or no to be posted.

 

[Jammer]

Do yourself a favour...wait until he has a posting message in his hand first. There's not much you can do until then.
It really depends on where you might be going (Europe, US...etc).
It's not you that will accept the posting, It'll be your husband. If he's been asking for it and he turns it down after being offered it there will be repurcussions that he will have to answer for.
Long story short...wait for a posting message and go from there.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

If you're posted to Europe you might want to check out Canadian Forces Europe Site, it has some info in the Living Abroad-Europe
Move; Living; and Departure.

If you can give us some more info I am sure some of the site members can help you out.

 

[AmmoTech90]

If it's Europe I can give a bit of advice, got back from a three year tour in the UK around a year and a half ago.

 

[captloadie]

No disrespect to Jammer, but the worse thing you can do is wait for a posting message. In order to make an informed decision on whether to except an outcan offer, you need to be well informed beforehand. Lots of members apply for an outcan without first thinking about the pros/cons, and then once the process is started, either realize its not what they wanted, or are too swept up in the screening and posting to think about all the important things until they arrive at the new station, and then its too late.

I was posted to the Netherlands this APS. It was an out of the blue offer to fill a vacancy that came up in due to someone else screening Red. I found out in May, and my family and I had to rush through alot of the process to get here by COS in August. We love it here, but the first few months were very difficult. If I could do it over again, I'd want to do what you are doing now, getting all the facts first.

Here are some of the important things to take a hard look at before saying yes, especially as a spouse. You'll probably see all these questions again when you do the screening, but talking about with your spouse now before the offer is made is best.

a) Are you going to a country where you speak the language, or where the majority of the population speaks English (or French I guess)?
b) Is there a large Cdn contingent on the post, or nearby, or will you be on a remote posting?
c) If you have school age children, where will they go to school, and is it equivalent to Canadian standards?
d) Will your spouse be away on trips alot, or can he be deployed for a tour?
e) Can you as a spouse work in the country your being posted to?
f) Do you have strong family ties in Canada that you can separate from for an extended period?
g) Are you prepared to downsize your living accommodations?
h) Although for the majority of oversea's postings money is not a factor (most of the allowances are quite generous), if you have alot of financial obligations and are used to having 2 incomes, can you enjoy all your new posting has to offer on potentially only one salary (you can't collect EI outside of Canada, not even maternity benefits)?

If you haven't read between the lines yet, as a spouse, the largest thing to adapt to on an overseas posting (with the exception of maybe a posting to the USA) is the potential feeling of isolation.

However, if after thinking about all the above, and realizing that yes, you still want to do it, it can be one of the best experiences ever for your family.

Best of Luck.

 

[Jammer]

None taken... :christmas happy:

 

[AWife]

Thank you ALL!

I realize it is my husband that will make either turn the posting down, but it is something we will do as a family also by as the previous poster who said weighing the pro's and con's before going blind into it.

But I do suppose, answering the questions that captloadie said, we are prepared in that sense.

Captloadie, you said downsizing living accommodations... we are in the 3br PMQ, as a family of four, can it really get any worse?

Feelings of isolation are something I've grown accustomed to as an Army Wife... he's gone a lot, my biggest fear is the financial aspect of it all. How does one purchase vehicles, if its a long term posting, purchasing a house... that sort of thing.

 

[Jammer]

You can take veh with you, but be careful. If you are going to Europe you might not want to bring your SUV. Gas prices are considerably more than in North America. The same goes for buying a house. Renting is what most everyone does.
if you are going to be living off base in Europe you will find it pretty easy to get along in English, but half the fun of an OUTCAN posting is immersing yourself in a totally different culture.

 

[old fart]

WRT vehicles, I bought a new GM in 2001 which we thought we would take to Germany.  My posting was switched to the UK, so although the steering wheel was going to be on the wrong side we still shipped it.

GM Canada were helpful getting our warranty registered with GM Overseas Corporation so that worked also..although  each UK repair had us paying upfront then claiming the cash back.  Parts were obtained quick and easy even though the vehicle was only available to the Swedish market.

If you take a vehicle with you from this end, I would take a BMW, Volvo or Volkswagen...although buying overseas has its advantages, i.e.  tax free with military discounts also. 

Incidentally, if you ended up in the UK, a left hand drive vehicle is easy to operate.

We  kept our Canadian home and rented it out, this kept us in the market and any losses tax deductable.  This worked for us, particularly as we came back to the base we had left four years prior. 

Never heard of anyone purchasing a home to live in overseas, although while we were there we purchased a second home back this side of the pond which was very easy to do.

You are eligible for a low interest loan before you depart, but these days that is not as much of a benefit as it was.

One of our kids went to High School in Europe (Italy), the other UNB before switch to a UK university (don't advise this as it is expensive as hell). 

Spousal employment may also prove difficult if that is a factor, unless you speak the lingo or live close enough to a CF Support Unit where employment opportunities may exist.

To some up.....when these postings occur, they come up fast, and before you know it your on the plane....the more you have read the better off you will be as there is a bit more admin to square away than normal. 

The  overseas support unit responsible for your admin in Europe or Ottawa if elsewhere will send you some good stuff but for us it was way to late to make the best use of it.  The CFSU(E) website was not functioning back in 2002, we left 2006.

Best of luck and have a very Merry Xmas.

Old fart....

 

[George Wallace]

Captloadie, you said downsizing living accommodations... we are in the 3br PMQ, as a family of four, can it really get any worse?

Feelings of isolation are something I've grown accustomed to as an Army Wife... he's gone a lot, my biggest fear is the financial aspect of it all. How does one purchase vehicles, if its a long term posting, purchasing a house... that sort of thing.

If you are posted outside of Canada, I would advise you to put all of your stuff in storage, sell the auto, and take only the necessary essentials.  In some countries you as a foreigner will not be permitted to "own property", so you will be more or less forced to rent.  Many countries in Europe have fully furnished apartments for rent.  In those countries, if you do get a place that is "unfurnished" it means that there are no lights, no kitchen cabinetry, etc. -- only the four walls, windows and doors. 

Purchasing an auto, or any other large item can usually be done quite simply.  If you own it for a minimum of six months prior to returning to Canada, you will escape duty and taxes on it.  Same goes for any other items you may purchase.  Check on the Rules governing Duty and Taxes, in case this changes.  As Canada no longer has a large contingient overseas, other than those in Afghanistan, most foreign postings are usually attached, or near, to an American Base, and you will have access to their PX.  You will be able to buy most items, small and large (including autos) through the American PX and at very, very reasonable prices, without HST, PST or GST.

Gas prices in most of Europe this Spring was around 1.32 Euro a lt.  I'll let you do the math.  European cars are much more fuel efficient than the cars you find here.  If you have a Diesel auto, you will find that they have as many grades of diesel fuel as there are grades of gasoline.  I also noticed that there was one thing different in gas prices; Super was the same price as Midgrade (I really didn't look to see if Regular was the same price).

One major thing you will face, especially if your spouse is away, is a "Culture Shock".  You spouse will also suffer this and you WILL have one.  How you handle it will dictate how long you can survive in that nation.  I am serious, and have witnessed some who could not last one year outside of Canada.

In all likelihood, someone who goes over for a period of three or more years, especially to Europe, will come back with four or five times what they went over with.  It may even mean  that they have a fire sale of all the items they left home in storage.  ;D

 

[old fart]

A word on storage, although we stored alot back here, the CF only pays for unheated storage.  We had a massive mold problem on return.  The subsequent drama with the insurance company lasted almost a year.

We lived in a UK PMQ (poor quality and likely small ) and if you want their 70s period furniture go for it....washer/ dryers and fridge not provided....Brits supply a stove only  We shipped our beds and a large TV that filled the living room.  Have some great pics to show if interested!  Be warned

Each person has a tax free exemption (10K, but could have changed) on return to Canada.  To take advantage of this WRT a vehicle purchased overseas you have to have owned it for at least a year.  George is wrong on the 6 month bit as applied to purchasing a vehicle overseas with a view to bringing it back.  The 6 month rule applies to everything else you buy.  If the receipt is less than 6 months old, you cannot declare the item as tax free and will pay sales tax and duty.  If you use the personal exemption on a vehicle, you will pay on everything else you ship home.

If you buy stuff oveseas and bring it back, that will eat into each persons tax free entitlement.  For instance, our dining room furniture and office furniture alone ate into a good chunk of our personal exemption.

The CF will ship a vehicle each way, very hard to dispose of in the UK but not impossible if you wanted to get rid of it.  If you buy overseas with the intent of shipping it home some car companies will also ship the car back for you free, i.e Volvo....As for gas, you will be on tax free status, and save a bundle so drive what the hell you like.  Any vehicle you bring back has to be admissible (check on the RIV.ca site) and be either Canadian spec or California spec.

Wherever you land in Canada on the way back is where you will clear customs, it can take quite a while to go through the customs paperwork.  If your stop in say Nfld, where our plane touched down, does not leave sufficient time you will miss your onward flight.  Customs won't care.

Some folks used to come home with on the QE2, now Queen Mary2 via New York....nice it the sailing schedule fits and you can come with the vehicle, driving up to Canada.

Yours aye, Old fart

 

[George Wallace]

As I said, CHECK the Rules governing the Duty and Taxes on bringing an auto home, after a long period overseas.  One rule that kept previous owners on their toes, was that you would have had to own the vehicle for a minimum of one year in Canada, before resale.  If not, Revenue Canada wanted their cut.

Depending on your research into purchasing an auto overseas, and on the length of your being out of Canada, the savings in the purchase price may make up for any Taxes you may have to pay.  Be mindful that in some cases it may be more expensive to purchase overseas.  Do your research. 

If it is your desire to purchase an auto overseas and bring it home, ensure that it meets Canadian standards, mechanically, electically (Lights), and emmission wise.  You will have to be sure to get an "Export" model.

Many of the points that everyone is covering can be confirmed while overseas by people in those locations.  As old fart has pointed out, we may have dated info, and regulations do change from time to time.  In the last eight to six months overseas, in your preparations for your return to Canada, you should get briefings that will cover all the regulations and give pointers as to what you can and can not bring, what Duties and Taxes you may have to pay, what kind of entitlements you may have, what electrical appliances, etc. you may be able to convert and what you will not, and most of all a timetable that you can follow over your last few months to get things done on time.


 

 

[kincanucks]

So in what trade do we offer OUTCAN postings to people unless they either have asked for them or been approached before a decision has been made?  Turn it down?  Asinine.

 

[armyvern]

One of my friends was posted outre-mer this past summer; it was offered to him by the career shop. He didn't have any overseas choices listed. He ran with it! (postie)

Also, this past summer, one of my subordinates had a request for a an overseas posting on her file; she screened for it (along with others); she was the one who was chosen to go at the end of it all. And did.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Some points from my posting Outcan

-You get around half your weight allowance to take overseas.  If you want to you can furnish your house with your own furniture.  Even lighting, just change the plugs.
-Electronics, leave them here or sell them.  You can pick up what you need from the US PX, just make sure it is multi-voltage, AND multi-system and you can bring it back with you
-You will receive a Vacation Travel Allowance that varies depending on family size.  For my wife and I (no kids) it was around 10k.  Your spouse has to take at least 5 days leave on the first claim, after that you can take less.  This should be given up front, and you simply fill out a pro-forma at the end of the posting detailing where you spent the money.  Be prepared to be audited if required (keep all receipts for x years, I think 5)
-Vehicles: I arranged to buy the beater from the guy I was taking over from.  When that died, I bought another beater (actually a nice 2003 Ford Mondeo) and sold that to my replacement.  As someone else said, you can buy a new car or cars tax free over there and have them shipped back.  A friend came back with a brand new Volvo and some sort of minivan, all North American spec.
-Fuel: Unless you get it from a NATO source, I was able to claim back approximately 1/2 of my fuel costs, up to I believe 250 litres per month so fuel is comparable or cheaper than Canada.  I think you could claim up to two vehicles at 250 litres per month.
-Pay:  You get allowances, and your pay is converted to local funds at bank rate, much better than you get at any bank or currency exchange.  I cleared in UK pounds approximately what I cleared in CA dollars (number wise) per month (note that I still had money going into CA savings, etc so it that was net of tax, savings, etc).
-If in the UK you (the non-military member) can get a work permit, without a problem.  Not sure about Germany, Italy, etc
-Brit military housing is cheap.  I paid 80 pounds (160-170 dollars) a month.  The house was nice.  This is not always the case.  A friend was posted to the UK as well, the same summer, different base.  They turned down all the PMQs offered, substantiated it, and got a subsidized house.  There is programme which you can opt in or out of that is basically rent/utility sharing.  If you opt in, you pay fixed amount every month depending on your area (it was around $400 for me) and anything above that for rent/heat/power/appliance rental is paid for you.  If you opt in and purchase the appliances you can claim a portion of that as well.  I did not opt in (given my low rent) and bought my appliances from my predecessor.
-Food, you can shop at the US PX nearby, so if you have a craving for Kraft Dinner it can be fulfilled.  Another bonus is the cheap steaks.  Spend $30 on some nice steaks and you can be the hero feeding the entire block at a BBQ.

If you get offered an Outcan posting in Europe take it.  It is a great experience.  You will have the opportunity to travel tons as a family and the work is interesting.  That being said I have encountered people who were completely miserable over there.  They stayed in their house, went back to Canada or the States with their
travel allowance.  We did France (north and south), Italy, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Portugal, Malta, Greece, Switzerland, Ireland, and Austria and my wife went home for her son's wedding.

It is very hard (but not impossible) to lose money Outcan.  Apply a modicum of financial planning and prudence and you will live very comfortably and enjoy your two or three years.

 

[AmmoTech90]

One other thing I missed.

In the UK at least, you submit a 1/4ly claim to claim back the sales tax (I believe I got 14%+ of an 18%+ VAT back).  When you consider that prices over there are taxes in, this is around a 15% sale on any durable good (something you take back with you, or is expected to last more than a year and can be used in Canada (no 220V only appliances)).  Given that, I compared prices around six months before coming home and found that it was cheap to furnish my new house in Canada with Ikea bought in the UK...

 

[TimBit]

Initial disclaimer: there may be threads on this topic around, but since I tried searching and couldn`t come up with anything.

Simple question: when posted to the US, do members normally purchase a residence, are they assigned military housing  on or near base or do they rent off the economy? I know there is PLD to offset any regional costs, but I couldn`t find anything about the accomodations themselves.

Just curious...

 

[aesop081]

Freind of mine is posted to Alaska and rents a house up there.

 

[dapaterson]

No entitlement to costs related to a house purchase when posted abroad.  On return, house purchase costs per chapter 8 of the CFIRP.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/aps-paa-2009/chapter-chapitre-12-eng.asp


Generally, you'll rent on the economy.  Your sponsor at your gaining unit should be able to provide some assistance.

EDIT to add:  See also the spiffy new OUTCAN website at: http://www.outcan.forces.gc.ca/sites/page-eng.asp?page=6894

 

[dapaterson]

And another post to add:  The MFSIs include some provisions to cover rents in excess of Canadian rates.  See:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/10-eng.asp