Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

[Radop]

A lot of friends that I have served overseas with are suffering from or have been released because of PSTD.  Rwanda, Somolia and Afghanistan seem to be the biggest causes of the stress.  Rwanda and Somolia personnel are now at least in their 10 or higher years of service.  Has the military done enough for these soldiers?  Too Little?  Too Much?

Please leave people's names out of this form.

 

[Gunner]

RadOp, I don't like your question because it doesn't matter where you do your tour, its what events you experience that may cause a reaction.  A soldier could have gone through a tour of Rwanda/Bosnia/Croatia just fine whereas on an earlier tour in Cyprus, while he was drinking beer and sunning himself on a beach, he could have witnessed/observed/experienced an event that could cause PTSD. 

My personnel feeling is PTSD is being used as a catch all for any problems/ailments/performance/family stress experienced by a soldier who has served overseas.  I have no doubt that some have actual PTSD but they are not always the ones taking advantage of the what the system provides.

As far as the military supporting these soldiers, I think the military system was ineffective in the early 90s as the CF system of support was broken through lack of experience and knowledge.  Now I think we have swung hard the other way with the system bending over backwards to anyone who walks through the door.

My 2 cents.

 

[KevinB]

FWIW - I think the Croatian portion of UNPROFOR shoudl have been included for IIRC that has actually claimed the largest percentage of PTSD case.

As for Cyprus I had to kill someone there - surprised eh? so was I, a young 23yr soldier with not much on my mind but beer and tits - I wont go into the meet of the story here but it caused me some problems mentally later on.

The biggest problem I think we have is that we as the CF do not go into the mindset deep enough, in creating warriors - look at some problems 3VP troops have had from Op Apollo.  The upcomign tour 3VP's chain of command had recognised it and is getting Col Grossman (USA) to come in and do his bulletproof mind seminar - which IMHO is excellent.


I still think the CF as a whole does not understand the factor that can cause PTSD and do not do enough to prepare the troop mentally, nor effectively debrief.

YMMV

 

[Gunner]

I still think the CF as a whole does not understand the factor that can cause PTSD and do not do enough to prepare the troop mentally, nor effectively debrief.

Kevin, that is an excellent comment and I fully endorse it.  We have done alot to provide services to soldiers who suffer from PTSD but we haven't done much to mitigate why it develops.

Echo your comments on LCol Grossman.  He is an excellent motivational speaker and his book "on killing" is an excellent read for professional soldiers.

 

[KevinB]

His new one "On Combat" is a MUST read.

I also must admit (prior to Infanteer coming in and pointing it out) being a Grossman junkie.  My girlfirend swiped On Combat from me after reading it over my shoudler...  She's a medic but I guess I cant hold that aginst her  ;D

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

What's his first name?  I can't find his book online.

 

[the 48th regulator]

A group that I found fantastic, that has stuck by my side with mountains of advice can be found at this link;

http://osiss.ca/engraph/home_e.asp?pg=1

It took me ten years to finally admit I may have changed.  Many Many people over the years tried to help.  I have to say though, I did NOT get much help from the military with this until just recently.  So I do not have a favourable opinion about support in that respect.  However, through a former RSM, our Padre, and OSIS I finally did something and got the ball rolling VA has arranged for me to see a doctor (one at the forefront of treating this for members of military which are suffering) , and talk about my feelings.

As a catch all, yep I used to say that too, as I saw a lot of that happening, meanwhile people who truly felt they suffered were denied.  But I would want to be careful of that statement, because as I said I always was the one to pipe up "Hey look at what I went through you don't see me whining!! Those guys who say they suffer are either weak or faking!!". Well, I just didn't want to admit I was one of them.

any way, I agree you should add Croatia...all of the tours saw things that had effects on us.

tess

 

[Gunner]

What's his first name?  I can't find his book online.

David Grossman.  Click on the link below to go to amazon.ca

http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/AS...60730/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/701-6869029-3792326

He has spoken a couple of times in Edmonton and if you have an opportunity to hear him speak, it is well worthwhile.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Well hopefully he makes his rounds to Manitoba.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

P.S.  Thanks for the link.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Is his book "On Killing:The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War & Society" the same as his book "On Killing"?

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/default.asp?Ntt=Dave+Grossman&Section=books&Catalog=books&Lang=en&zxac=1

 

[Radop]

RadOp, I don't like your question because it doesn't matter where you do your tour, its what events you experience that may cause a reaction.   A soldier could have gone through a tour of Rwanda/Bosnia/Croatia just fine whereas on an earlier tour in Cyprus, while he was drinking beer and sunning himself on a beach, he could have witnessed/observed/experienced an event that could cause PTSD.  

My personnel feeling is PTSD is being used as a catch all for any problems/ailments/performance/family stress experienced by a soldier who has served overseas.   I have no doubt that some have actual PTSD but they are not always the ones taking advantage of the what the system provides.

As far as the military supporting these soldiers, I think the military system was ineffective in the early 90s as the CF system of support was broken through lack of experience and knowledge.   Now I think we have swung hard the other way with the system bending over backwards to anyone who walks through the door.

I just felt like discussing a topic that is often avoided.  Different people will react to the same stimulus different and one may come away with PSTD.  It could also catch up to the person 10 yrs down the road when they see something on tv.  I saw the video they put out for rwanda on the stress related to overseas tours.  I was far more stressed from that than the tour itself because of all the things discussed in a 30 min video, we experienced in a 6 mos tour.  I agree with most of your comments but it seams like some get help but others dont.  Funny how a WO will tell one of his soldiers to suck it up but a month later he gets put on SPHL.

 

[Art Johnson]

A very interesting string but the subject goes much deeper than anything that can be covered here. It is not that long ago that soldiers were put up against the wall and shot for what we now refer to as PTSD. I recall an incident where we had a chap go out under escort for evaluation, he came back, one of the escorts didn't he was sent home as S5.
Tess and I are in somewhat of a similar situation in that we were both seriously wounded. For me things began to catch up to me about five or six years ago, I went for the best part of fifty years before things started to bother me. Now the least little sudden bit of noise and I just about jump out of my skin. I don't get upset about the people I have killed but it really bothers me now about
my buddies who were killed.

Pro Patria

Aye Dileas

 

[old medic]

As a side bar note to this topic,

I have created a Mental Health header in the medical index and placed a couple of initial links under it.
If anyone has any other favourite ptsd resources, post it here or pm me and we'll make a list of resources.

 

[Radop]

A very interesting string but the subject goes much deeper than anything that can be covered here. It is not that long ago that soldiers were put up against the wall and shot for what we now refer to as PTSD. I recall an incident where we had a chap go out under escort for evaluation, he came back, one of the escorts didn't he was sent home as S5.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cdnsad/

This is the link to the Canadians Shot at Dawn site.  Very disturbing reading on how many were killed just to set an example.  Most were killed by the British without consulting our governmet at all.

 

[KevinB]

FWIW - I beleive that 3VP is having Col Grossman over to do his Bulletproof Mind seminar prior to their redeployment to Afghanistan this year.

 

[Art Johnson]

An interesting read on this subject is "The Cream of the Crop" by Allan English it is full of statistical information and quotes from reports as far back as WW I. Not an easy read but it does deal with the subject matter of this string and how it was handled by the RCAF during WW II.


"The Cream of the Crop is the first comprehensive account of the Royal Canadian Air Force's (RCAF) selection and training procedures and its policies governing aviators who were considered unsuited for operational duties, especially those judged to have a "lack of moral fibre" (LMF). Allan English assesses the effectiveness of RCAF use of manpower and questions whether the aircrew really were, as the RCAF alleged, the cream of the nation's crop.

English describes the development of a uniquely Canadian selection system that attempted to match the aptitudes of aircrew candidates to the duties they would perform and the evolution of the RCAF's training program from a haphazard system with enormous attrition to one that became the model for many modern systems. He traces the development of aviation psychology and the treatment of psychological casualties of air combat. English pays particular attention to the LMF controversy and the RCAF's response as well as the effect of morale and leadership on the psychological well-being of, and casualty rates among, Royal Air Force and RCAF bomber squadrons.

In exploring the human dimension of air warfare, an issue that has been widely overlooked in military literature, English demonstrates that personnel considerations have at least as much influence on the effectiveness of air forces as material and technological factors."

 

[medicineman]

Funny KevinB should mention Cyprus - one of my first encounters with PTSD came from someone who had been there in '74 when the Turks invaded.

MM

 

[Radop]

We had people come down with it in the Golan were the biggest threat was the fall off your bar stool.  I guess I am more critical because I did Rwanda as my first tour and saw Golan as a reward for the job I had done in Kingston.  We considered it the sigs club med.  No Methoquin, no one firing at you, leave camp when you want and no restriction on alcohol.  There were people there complaining about having two to a room yet in Rwanda, we had as little as 27 to as many as 35 in our room.  Our personal space was the width of a barrack box by the length of a cot.  I would have liked to see how they liked that.

Afghanistan on the other hand was full of new people on their first tours with a bunch of people who had multiple tours.  I think they got influenced by us who had lived in pretty poor conditions.  We thought we had it good but as my quote at the bottom, people still complained about the living conditions of the camp.

 

[medicineman]

Kind of goes back to being mentally prepared for what you're going into - be it worst case scenario or reality as it is.  A lot of people don't seem to have the mind set they need when they go to some of these places - being able to stand back and realize they are in a bad place with bad things happening around them and getting on with things.  It also doesn't help that some things tend to be "sterilized" as it were either - the press or the government either ignoring what's happening or failing to mention important events (witness Medak for instance) that tends to trivialize things for the personnel when they get home.  So when people who are trying to vent bring up that they were in a shooting war, others (who weren't there) look at them with that four headed alien look of "yeah, whatever...".  I think (hope) that things are changing in that regard; actions tend to be acknowledged more now and the public seem (a little bit) more informed that we are in fact soldiers and not just heavily armed cops.  All that adds up - a good example of that comes from Vietnam vets, who were by and larged shunned by the American public as the visible scapegoats for the war.

A couple of pennies in the hat.

MM