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OpEd the ME Times: Muslim mind on fire

paracowboy

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http://www.metimes.com/articles/normal.php?StoryID=20050726-073844-6818r
Opinion: The Muslim mind is on fire
Youssef M. Ibrahim
July 26, 2005

DUBAI -- The world of Islam is on fire. Indeed, the Muslim mind is on fire. Above all, the West is now ready to take both of them on.

The latest reliable report confirms that on average 33 Iraqis die every day, executed by Iraqis and foreign jihadis and suicide bombers, not by US or British soldiers. In fact, fewer than ever US or British soldiers are dying since the invasion more than two years ago. Instead, we now watch on television hundreds of innocent Iraqis lying without limbs, bleeding in the streets dead or wounded for life. If this is jihad someone got his religious education completely upside down.

Palestine is on fire, too, with Palestinian armed groups fighting one another - Hamas against Fatah and all against the Palestinian Authority. All have rendered Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas impotent and have diminished the world's respect and sympathy for Palestinian sufferings.

A couple of weeks ago London was on fire as Pakistani and other Muslims with British citizenship blew up tube stations in the name of Islam. Al Qaeda in Europe or one of its franchises proclaimed proudly the killing of 54 and wounding 700 innocent citizens was done to "avenge Islam" and Muslims.

Madrid was on fire, too, last year, when Muslim jihadis blew up train stations killing 160 people and wounding a few thousands.

The excuse in all the above cases was the war in Iraq, but let us not forget that in September 2001, long before Iraq, Osama Bin Laden proudly announced that he ordered the killing of some 3,000 in the United States, in the name of avenging Islam. Let us not forget that the killing began a long time before the invasion of Iraq.

Indeed, jihadis have been killing for a decade in the name of Islam. They killed innocent tourists and natives in Morocco and Egypt, in Africa, in Indonesia and in Yemen, all done in the name of Islam by Muslims who say that they are better than all other Muslims. They killed in India, in Thailand and are now talking of killing in Germany and Denmark and so on. There were attacks with bombs that killed scores inside Shia and Sunni mosques, inside churches and inside synagogues in Turkey and Tunisia, with Muslim preachers saying that it is okay to kill Jews and Christians - the so called infidels.

Above all, it is the Muslim mind that is on fire.

The Muslim fundamentalist who attacked the Dutch film director Theo Van Gogh in the Netherlands, stabbed him more than 23 times then cut his throat. He recently proudly proclaimed at his trial: "I did it because my religion - Islam - dictated it and I would do it again if were free." Which preacher told this guy this is Islam? That preacher should be in jail with him.

Do the cowardly jihadis who recruit suicide bombers really think that they will force the US Army and British troops out of Iraq by killing hundreds of innocent Iraqis? US troops now have bases and operate in Iraq but also from Kuwait, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Oman.

The only accomplishment of jihadis is that now they have aroused the great "Western Tiger". There was a time when the United States and Europe welcomed Arab and Muslim immigrants, visitors and students, with open arms. London even allowed all dissidents escaping their countries to preach against those countries under the guise of political refugees.

Well, that is all over now. Time has become for the big Western vengeance.

Visas for Arab and Muslim young men will be impossible to get for the United States and Western Europe. Those working there will be expelled if they are illegal, and harassed even if their papers are in order.

Airlines will have to right to refuse boarding to passengers if their names even resemble names on a prohibited list on all flights heading to Europe and the United States.

What is more important to remember is this: When the West did unite after World War II to beat communism, the long Cold War began without pity. They took no prisoners. They all stood together, from the United States to Norway, from Britain to Spain, from Belgium to Switzerland. And they did bring down the biggest empire. Communism collapsed.

I fear those naïve Muslims who think that they are beating the West have now achieved their worst crime of all. The West is now going to war against not only Muslims, but also, sadly, Islam as a religion.

In this new cold and hot war, car bombs and suicide bombers here and there will be no match for the arsenal that those Westerners are putting together - an arsenal of laws, intelligence pooling, surveillance by satellites, armies of special forces and indeed, allies inside the Arab world who are tired of having their lives disrupted by demented so-called jihadis or those bearded preachers who, under the guise of preaching, do little to teach and much to ignite the fire, those who know little about Islam and nothing about humanity.

Youssef M. Ibrahim, a former Middle East correspondent for The New York Times and energy editor of the Wall Street Journal, is managing director of the Dubai-based Strategic Energy Investment Group
 
wow, nice read.

Lets here more of this please.  Also could someone send this to Ms. Parrish.
 
I agree with CFL,

but I fear that Miss Parrish wouldnt read it, nor condone the existance of any thought outsid ethe shallow ones lurking in her cranium....
 
Unfortunately her (Carolyn's) mantra  is "My mind's made up don't confuse me with the facts". Interesting article it certainly puts a different perspective on this situation.
 
I do not condone any attacks, but we need to keep an open mind. No country is innocent. I would like people to Google "Operation Northwoods".

Here is a cut/paste:

"According to secret and long-hidden documents obtained for Body of Secrets, the Joint Chiefs of Staff drew up and approved plans for what may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government. In the name of antiCommunism, they proposed launching a secret and bloody war of terrorism against their own country in order to trick the American public into supporting an ill-conceived war they intended to launch against Cuba".

Also, let us not forget the innocent Japanes killed by two atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These were civilian targets and tens of thousands were killed compared to 3000 in NY.

I know I'll get flamed for this, but I just want people to realize the U.S. is not innocent either.

My family moved out of Palestine in 1948 after the invasion. I think what the Muslim world needs to do is modernize and become secular. This is just one guys opinion.
 
author=Imhotep link=topic=33128/post-247730#msg247730 date=1123082367]
I do not condone any attacks, but we need to keep an open mind. No country is innocent. I would like people to Google "Operation Northwoods".

Here is a cut/paste:

"According to secret and long-hidden documents obtained for Body of Secrets, the Joint Chiefs of Staff drew up and approved plans for what may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government. In the name of antiCommunism, they proposed launching a secret and bloody war of terrorism against their own country in order to trick the American public into supporting an ill-conceived war they intended to launch against Cuba".

I googled it. The attacks were supposed to be mock attacks, and a campaign of misinformation, the proposal was rejected by Robert McNamara. It was a plan, like so many others, but it was never carried out.

Also, let us not forget the innocent Japanes killed by two atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These were civilian targets and tens of thousands were killed compared to 3000 in NY.

First the US was the victim of an unprovoked attack by the Japanese, remember Pearl Harbour Dec 7th? Second, how about the Rape of Nanking by the Japanese Army? " Between December 1937 and March 1938 at least 369,366 Chinese civilians and prisoners of war were slaughtered. An estimated 80,000 women and girls were raped; many of them were then mutilated or murdered."  So by your reasoning it was OK for Muslim terrorists to kill ONLY 3000 US citizens on 9/11 because they dropped the bomb in WW2? You've lost me....








 
I am sorry for losing you. I know about Pearl Harbor. That was a military target. Does that justify killing tens of thousands of civilians in two shots?

Also, you've helped to prove my point with Nanking. All I was saying is that there are many countries that have done horrible things.

My main point was my last line which you failed to quote.
 
I do not condone any attacks, but we need to keep an open mind. No country is innocent. I would like people to Google "Operation Northwoods".

Here is a cut/paste:

"According to secret and long-hidden documents obtained for Body of Secrets, the Joint Chiefs of Staff drew up and approved plans for what may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government. In the name of antiCommunism, they proposed launching a secret and bloody war of terrorism against their own country in order to trick the American public into supporting an ill-conceived war they intended to launch against Cuba".

Also, let us not forget the innocent Japanes killed by two atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These were civilian targets and tens of thousands were killed compared to 3000 in NY.

I know I'll get flamed for this, but I just want people to realize the U.S. is not innocent either.

My family moved out of Palestine in 1948 after the invasion. I think what the Muslim world needs to do is modernize and become secular. This is just one guys opinion.



Umm.....??

000_0031.jpg
 
I found the book The Making of The Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes to provide a better understanding of the events. It is pretty neutral in tone and has details from both sides. The big question of why I think is shown well in the following:

    The American writer Paul Fussel, an Army veteran, emphasizes "the importance of experience, sheer vulagr experience, in influencing one's views about the use of the bomb." The experience Fussel means is "that of having come to grips, face to face, with an enemy who designs your death":
 
    I was a 21-year old second lietenant leading a rifle platoon. Although still officially in one piece, in the German war I had been wounded in the leg and back severely enough to be adjudged, after the war, 40 percent disabled. But even if the leg buckled whenever I jumped out of the back of the truck, my condition was held to be satisfactory for whatever lay ahead. When the bombs dropped and news began to circulate that [the invansion of japan] would not, after all, take place, that we would not be obliged to run up the beaches near Tokyo assault-firing while being mortared and shelled, for all the fake manliness of our facades we cried with relief and joy. We were going to live. We were going to grow up to adulthood after all.

They wanted the war to end after the years of sacrifice and hardship. The book of course covers a lot more viewpoints but this one seems to felt by a lot who were directly involved. Was it a good choice? That very much depends on a persons viewpoint but for me anyway those who have never know sacrifice or real hardship judging the actions of those who know both seem arrogant and self centered.
 
Imhotep said:
I am sorry for losing you. I know about Pearl Harbor. That was a military target. Does that justify killing tens of thousands of civilians in two shots?

Also, you've helped to prove my point with Nanking. All I was saying is that there are many countries that have done horrible things.

My main point was my last line which you failed to quote.

Alright here is my point. Japan was the aggressor nation and went to war to expand their empire. The US in self defence fought back with all the tools at their disposal. Whether it was by the atomic bomb, or by sending over fleets of aircraft using conventional bombs and a land invasion, the effect would have been the same, thousands of civilians would have died, as they did in Europe. Surrender was not an option for the Japanese, so rather than prolong the war by months, the US chose to show them by use of the bomb, the futility of carrying on with the war.  So one could argue that the US saved millions of lives by dropping two bombs. (I believe casualty rates for a US invasion were estimated at a million men.) Either way I don't have any sympathy for the Japanese. Anyway this is way off topic.

Is the US the prefect nation, no, however, thank-God they are the world's super power rather than the former Soviet Union. I seem to recall that the US was first to come to the aid of Muslim countries in the Tsunami and during the Iranian earthquake a few years back. I also recall that the reponse from the oil rich Muslim nations was somewhat muted?

 
Further to the possibility of a conventional war in the Pacific with Japan;

1) Most of the military minds of the day agreed that it would take three more years  and in the neighborhood of one million american and allied casualties to beat the empire of Japan back to her origional borders, then conquer the islands.

2) The Japanese emperor and military operated with the full (or at least great majority support) of the public, who provided a volunteer military and fantastic levels of investment and production for the Japanese war machine. This means that certain cities were targeted for their military - industrial capabilities, not because they were civilian centers.

3) (This is a more subjective reason) The belief systems in place in Japan regarding the inherent superiority of the Japanese race made those of the Aryan Nazis look juvenile in comparison. The savagery in which the Japanese treated their captured enemy and civilians has gone unchallenged to this day, as has the lack of any sort of admission of official wrongdoing. If the empire was crushed, not just defeated in honorable combat, this mindset of invincibility could be removed. Hence the assertation by the allies that the emperor himself would have to tender the unconditional surrender of the empire, with numerous conditions, in order to demonstrate to the Japanese people that they had not just lost, they had been brought to heel.

And in my own personal opinion, I would take the deaths of any number of foreign nationals over the deaths of my own countries troops.

Cheers
 
Imhotep said:
My family moved out of Palestine in 1948 after the invasion. I think what the Muslim world needs to do is modernize and become secular. This is just one guys opinion.


THEN YOU WANT TO GET DOWN AND KISS THE GROUND YOU'RE STANDING ON !!!!!!
 
You know the solution is a simple one.

If anyone isn't happy with how things are and WANTS to live in a medievil theocratic society there are still nations out there who do business that way.

Just get yourself a plane ticket and have a good trip. Don't blow up my house cause your own isn't in order, or I choose not to live the way you do...

Cause if you do chances are I'm going to be pissed about it!

Slim
 
FastEddy said:


THEN YOU WANT TO GET DOWN AND KISS THE GROUND YOU'RE STANDING ON !!!!!!

I can't think of a bettter way to show your appreciation for your adoptive country than to serve in its Armed Forces!  Have you been in the same situation as Imhotep?  If not then maybe you should be the one to kiss the ground of the only country you've ever known.  I may not agree with his ideas but I'm not going to pull an attitude over what he clearly said was his own opinion.  :salute:
 
Wow. I can't believe FastEddy and Slim. Must I repeat my point again? Read carefully please. I'll try wording it differently. The biggest problem I see is like you say, "a medievil theocratic society". So, like I said, (In my opinion) These countries, and muslims in general should become secular. Try doing a bit of research before flame posting. Look up SECULAR ISLAM. I'll even help you http://www.secularislam.org/ I appreciate your understanding bullet counter. People need to read/research.
 
paracowboy said:
http://www.metimes.com/articles/normal.php?StoryID=20050726-073844-6818r
Opinion: The Muslim mind is on fire
Youssef M. Ibrahim
July 26, 2005

DUBAI -- The world of Islam is on fire. Indeed, the Muslim mind is on fire. Above all, the West is now ready to take both of them on.

The latest reliable report confirms that on average 33 Iraqis die every day, executed by Iraqis and foreign jihadis and suicide bombers, not by US or British soldiers. In fact, fewer than ever US or British soldiers are dying since the invasion more than two years ago. Instead, we now watch on television hundreds of innocent Iraqis lying without limbs, bleeding in the streets dead or wounded for life. If this is jihad someone got his religious education completely upside down.

Palestine is on fire, too, with Palestinian armed groups fighting one another - Hamas against Fatah and all against the Palestinian Authority. All have rendered Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas impotent and have diminished the world's respect and sympathy for Palestinian sufferings.
Oh yes. It's terrible that Palestinian raised terrorist groups are fighting eachother thus diminishing Palestinian self-emposed suffering. What a tragedy.
A couple of weeks ago London was on fire as Pakistani and other Muslims with British citizenship blew up tube stations in the name of Islam. Al Qaeda in Europe or one of its franchises proclaimed proudly the killing of 54 and wounding 700 innocent citizens was done to "avenge Islam" and Muslims.

Madrid was on fire, too, last year, when Muslim jihadis blew up train stations killing 160 people and wounding a few thousands.

The excuse in all the above cases was the war in Iraq, but let us not forget that in September 2001, long before Iraq, Osama Bin Laden proudly announced that he ordered the killing of some 3,000 in the United States, in the name of avenging Islam. Let us not forget that the killing began a long time before the invasion of Iraq.

Indeed, jihadis have been killing for a decade in the name of Islam. They killed innocent tourists and natives in Morocco and Egypt, in Africa, in Indonesia and in Yemen, all done in the name of Islam by Muslims who say that they are better than all other Muslims. They killed in India, in Thailand and are now talking of killing in Germany and Denmark and so on. There were attacks with bombs that killed scores inside Shia and Sunni mosques, inside churches and inside synagogues in Turkey and Tunisia, with Muslim preachers saying that it is okay to kill Jews and Christians - the so called infidels.
A decade, you say? Interesting.. I guess 10 years was sufficient for this article.
Above all, it is the Muslim mind that is on fire.

The Muslim fundamentalist who attacked the Dutch film director Theo Van Gogh in the Netherlands, stabbed him more than 23 times then cut his throat. He recently proudly proclaimed at his trial: "I did it because my religion - Islam - dictated it and I would do it again if were free." Which preacher told this guy this is Islam? That preacher should be in jail with him.
Sure, unfortunately, those with the guts to speak out against That Guy and his preacher, are in hiding.
Do the cowardly jihadis who recruit suicide bombers really think that they will force the US Army and British troops out of Iraq by killing hundreds of innocent Iraqis? US troops now have bases and operate in Iraq but also from Kuwait, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Oman.

The only accomplishment of jihadis is that now they have aroused the great "Western Tiger". There was a time when the United States and Europe welcomed Arab and Muslim immigrants, visitors and students, with open arms. London even allowed all dissidents escaping their countries to preach against those countries under the guise of political refugees.

Well, that is all over now. Time has become for the big Western vengeance.

Visas for Arab and Muslim young men will be impossible to get for the United States and Western Europe. Those working there will be expelled if they are illegal, and harassed even if their papers are in order.

Airlines will have to right to refuse boarding to passengers if their names even resemble names on a prohibited list on all flights heading to Europe and the United States.

What is more important to remember is this: When the West did unite after World War II to beat communism, the long Cold War began without pity. They took no prisoners. They all stood together, from the United States to Norway, from Britain to Spain, from Belgium to Switzerland. And they did bring down the biggest empire. Communism collapsed.

I fear those naïve Muslims who think that they are beating the West have now achieved their worst crime of all. The West is now going to war against not only Muslims, but also, sadly, Islam as a religion.

In this new cold and hot war, car bombs and suicide bombers here and there will be no match for the arsenal that those Westerners are putting together - an arsenal of laws, intelligence pooling, surveillance by satellites, armies of special forces and indeed, allies inside the Arab world who are tired of having their lives disrupted by demented so-called jihadis or those bearded preachers who, under the guise of preaching, do little to teach and much to ignite the fire, those who know little about Islam and nothing about humanity.

Youssef M. Ibrahim, a former Middle East correspondent for The New York Times and energy editor of the Wall Street Journal, is managing director of the Dubai-based Strategic Energy Investment Group
Ah, of course. The cure to radical Islam is more Islamic education! That'll fix'r up.. clean as a whistle! Would Cat Stevens lie??
 
bullet counter said:
I can't think of a bettter way to show your appreciation for your adoptive country than to serve in its Armed Forces!  Have you been in the same situation as Imhotep?  If not then maybe you should be the one to kiss the ground of the only country you've ever known.  I may not agree with his ideas but I'm not going to pull an attitude over what he clearly said was his own opinion.  :salute:
I bet you'd pull attitude if I vested a wide range of opinions, thus exposing your hypocracy. Radical Islam has the opinion that I should die. I'll be pulling some attitude on that, as well.
 
Imhotep said:
Wow. I can't believe FastEddy and Slim. Must I repeat my point again? Read carefully please. I'll try wording it differently. The biggest problem I see is like you say, "a medievil theocratic society". So, like I said, (In my opinion) These countries, and muslims in general should become secular. Try doing a bit of research before flame posting. Look up SECULAR ISLAM. I'll even help you http://www.secularislam.org/ I appreciate your understanding bullet counter. People need to read/research.


Admittedly, I have little or no knowledge of Islam or the Koran. However I do have reason or knowledge to believe that the world wide Terrorism is being carried out by and in the name of Islam.

I have read your item on Secular Islam and found it very parallel to Western Doctrines. In theory it is fine but to what extent or effort is it  being adopted or practiced.

As to all the Snips & Snipes, YES I do get down and kiss the ground I walk on EVERY DAY. The inference to Imhotep was made, i.e Yes you should thank your Lucky Stars that decision was made.

We are all aware of some of the differences of the U.S.A, but whereas the Brave Youngmen and Women of our neighbors are being killed on a daily bases. Who are fighting for the same Freedoms and Democray we share and enjoy. I think it is in bad taste to Criticize their Country.



 
I have some severe reservations that the war in Iraq is being fought as a method of preserving western freedoms, but that is an entirely seperate thread.

FastEddy, you must seperate support for the troops, and support for their nation and it's policies. I wholeheartedly support the soldiers in Iraq - and exchange e-mails with a number of them. I also believe (as do many of them) that it is a war fought on false pretences. So, one can absolutely criticise their country, without unjustly slandering those who serve it.

This is a marked departure from the Vietnam era, when returning troops were mocked and spit on, as a method of expressing displeasure with US foreign policy. Most of the world has realised that the military, and those who compose it are a tool of the government, not a political organ with the capacity to formulate new policy, or change the direction of existing policy.

Cheers
 
Well said GO!!! Fasteddy, you said " In theory it is fine but to what extent or effort is it  being adopted or practiced." That's just it. I think that is the key part that needs to be worked on. In my opinion it needs to be adopted by all the hard core countries. They have to adopt it in order to evolve as nations with the rest of the world. I'm glad you read about it. I hate that these extremist groups ruin it for the rest of the Arab world. Also, Arab does not = Muslim. It's funny how it is assumed by so many that if you are an Arab, you are Muslim.
 
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