Officer or NCM for CANSOFCOM?

[jwsteele]

Simple question here.  Do officer's really have much of a chance to serve with the special operations units?  It seems that even if they do make it in that they don't get to do too much of the hands on stuff and are stuck with the command role while the NCM's get to carry out the tasks that are more fun.  Can someone shed some light on this.

 

[dapaterson]

Define "fun".

In a traditional military structure there are many fewer officers than NCMs, that generally holds true in Special Operations units as well.  Work, be it physical door kicking or detailed planning, is divided in units so best use may be made of everyone's training, abilities and experience.

Detailed descriptions of who does what to whom (and how, when and where they do it) within units falls into the realm of OPSEC... and Army.ca (and its loyal readers from Frank magazine) have no need to know through these means.


Finally, if you view command roles as something people are "stuck with", might I suggest that aspirations for any rank above corporal are unfounded... and even Corporals must command privates.

 

[jwsteele]

Let me re-phrase.  I don't have a problem with command roles and didn't mean to say they're unimportant I was just wondering whether officers in these units actually get to do much of the "hands on" work. 

 

[Journeyman]

Simple question here.  Do officer's really have much of a chance to serve with the special operations units?  It seems that even if they do make it in that they don't get to do too much of the hands on stuff and are stuck with the command role while the NCM's get to carry out the tasks that are more fun.  Can someone shed some light on this.

Note: response is toned down significantly in light of the site owner's recent caution on tone and personal attacks.1

You're a dickwad.
You claim to be an officer, yet figure you'll be "stuck" in a command role.
You claim to be infantry, yet figure you won't do too much "hands on stuff."

Officers command; it's our bread and butter. And in the infantry, you better be leading....from the front....which will make you just as dirty, cold, wet, tired, and possibly dead....as your troops. That is hands on.

Again, so this doesn't appear to be a personal attack,  :  I'll end here. Perhaps you should as well.



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1. http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/51970/post-463477.html#msg463477

 

[jwsteele]

Well put.  Very mature.  Thanks for the answer.  I suppose you researched that.  If I wanted a lecture on what an officers role was I would go talk to a Sgt because clearly your lesson plan is a little cluttered.  I asked a legitimate question and expected a legitimate answer "SIR."

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Time out is now in effect.......



EDIT: on some second thought I will reopen this as there seems to be a 'different' way of thinking between a younger member and a couple of 'grizzled'  older members.

HOWEVER, LETS KEEP IT FROM GETTING PERSONAL.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

The "hands on' work of a Combat Arms Officer is, in fact, always leadership - and sometimes command.  I have never had more "hands on fun" than when leading troops.  If by fun, you mean humping a ruck, digging your own trench, and being an effective fire team partner for your signaller, you will have lots of opportunity to do that.  If by fun you mean sharing hardships, unloading a truck in the rain, and sharing a quiet smoke (or word) with a fellow soldier irrespective of rank, you will also have lots of opportunity to do that.  Sadly, I have seen many who fail to take that those opportunities, and just focus on being "stuck" with command.

You are an untrained OCdt.  You have just been offered some very pointed advice from an experienced soldier.  You may want to think about the response that you received to your comments, and your quite frankly unnecessarily sarcastic response, and wonder if that approach will work should you eventually be a) trained, and b) trusted to command soldiers.

 

[Sapper6]

PPCLI Guy,

+1

Ain't being commander "fun"?

S6

 

[McG]

.... I was just wondering whether officers in these units actually get to do much of the "hands on" work.

You are not really coming out and telling us what it is you want to know.  Do you mean to ask "will the officer will be no. 1 door kicker or a sniper?"  If that is the case, the answer is no.  If you mean to ask "will the officer lead his soldiers in to the objective," then the answer is yes; that is the officer's job.

There are some good answers above and from soldiers with experience in the occupation you now find yourself.

 

[Big Foot]

Well put.  Very mature.  Thanks for the answer.  I suppose you researched that.  If I wanted a lecture on what an officers role was I would go talk to a Sgt because clearly your lesson plan is a little cluttered.  I asked a legitimate question and expected a legitimate answer "SIR."

jwsteele, I would strongly recommend following the advice of Journeyman. As an Officer Cadet, it is extremely important to learn from those willing to teach you. I realise JM's tone was a little rough, however the message is simple. Life is not like the small party tasks on IAP, you are expected to do the same work as your troops. That means that, at times, life will suck. You will find yourself depending on your signaller to cover your 6, a responsibility which you must also fulfill for him. In your profile you admit that you have only done IAP. You are in no position to be lecturing a member as senior as Journeyman. Take the substance of the message to heart, not necessarily the delivery. If you continue with that attitude, I can forsee a very long, unenjoyable time for you in Gagetown in the future. Learn while you can, make mistakes while you can without costing lives. Most of all, listen to people with experience. Whether they be a sergeant, a captain or even a no hook private who has been places you have never been, the experience which they impart to you will prove invaluable to you later in your career.

 

[aesop081]

NCMs have a role to fullfill

Officers have another.....

You chose your path, live with it

 

[AD]

jwsteele this site has soo much to offer you. And even more so, the people on this site have invaluable information to offer you. I am an Officer Cadet, and I've done less training than anyone. Zero infact. As a result of being brand spankin new to the CF, I have soo many questions. If it wasn't for the knowledge and experience of those on this site, I wouldn't know ANYTHING. Keep asking questions. I'm going to. However, when someone responds to your questions with a bit of a harsh connotation...which will happen, you are in no position to insult, or belittle anyone. It's a matter of respect. Not just because someone ranks higher than you, but because he took the time to answer your question.

Good luck to you

 

[medaid]

jwsteele, it has always been my opinion that some of the best officers have at sometime spent time as an NCM. Although this may not be true in all cases, notice that I said 'some' of the best officers have been NCMs, there are also really great officers who have not. Being an OCdt myself, I have learned that those I have served with previously, and am now learning to command are some of the greatest assets you could have with regards to references and experience.

Please rrecall your 10 principles of leadership, and remember that our primary role within the Forces is to lead, while being able to balance the mission objectives and the needs of our soldiers. lastly...your own needs come last. I know it's hard to do, but you've got to try your best. Your SNCOs are your best sources of reference, suggestions, and anything else you could think of with relation to the military.

Remember... leadership is our life. When we chose to accept that responsibility, no matter what our MOC may be, we are entrusted with that responsibility, along with the lives our those who serve under us.

Read. Learn. Accept Criticism. This is the only way to advance and become a well rounded leader. IMHO.

a little off topic. sorry guys.

 

[jwsteele]

The "hands on' work of a Combat Arms Officer is, in fact, always leadership - and sometimes command.  I have never had more "hands on fun" than when leading troops.  If by fun, you mean humping a ruck, digging your own trench, and being an effective fire team partner for your signaller, you will have lots of opportunity to do that.  If by fun you mean sharing hardships, unloading a truck in the rain, and sharing a quiet smoke (or word) with a fellow soldier irrespective of rank, you will also have lots of opportunity to do that.  Sadly, I have seen many who fail to take that those opportunities, and just focus on being "stuck" with command.

You are an untrained OCdt.  You have just been offered some very pointed advice from an experienced soldier.  You may want to think about the response that you received to your comments, and your quite frankly unnecessarily sarcastic response, and wonder if that approach will work should you eventually be a) trained, and b) trusted to command soldiers.

That was precisely the answer I was looking for.  Valid, direct, non-personal, and informative.  Thank you for that PPCLIguy.  I also appreciate all the other replies, however, my sarcastic response to Journeyman stands.  I realize he has a lifetime more experience and knowledge than me but he did nothing to share that in his post...."Dickwad" doesn't exactly make me beg to hear more wisdom.  Now could someone answer one of my original questions.  Do officers really have a shot at special operations?  If they are sent to selection and pass are they automatically going to be trained or can they be rejected because the unit doesn't have an officer position open?

 

[George Wallace]

........  Do officers really have a shot at special operations?  If they are sent to selection and pass are they automatically going to be trained or can they be rejected because the unit doesn't have an officer position open?

As a person who is training to be an officer, surely you can deduct from the posts above the answers to your questions?  Do officers really have a shot at special operations was answered in at least two of the posts above.  As a matter of fact, so was the question as to whether or not they would be trained.  It would be like a 12 year old Cadet asking you "if you are selected and pass the requirements to get into RMC, would you get to attend University Level classes?" 

 

[Journeyman]

PM inbound jw  ;D

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Just because I sometimes have a knack for overlooking to obvious I'll take it right out of a canforgen. Service in JTF-2 is open to all members of the CF regardless of rank or trade so long as they can pass the requirements for service in JTF-2. As for CSOR, I know that a multitude of officer posn's exist, however I will leave the breakdown to the experts. Unfortunately I couldn't find the canforgen on a non DWAN site, so pm me and I'll email it to you if you want it.

Very true, but officers, no matter what the unit, still command.  You're unlikely to find many officers kicking in doors in JTF2, despite the fact that they're qualified to do so.

Frankly, I find commanding "fun" and if you don't enjoy the challenge of leadership, you've picked the wrong line of work.

 

[Rhibwolf]

JW, PM inbound

 

[KevinB]

You're unlikely to find many officers kicking in doors in JTF2, despite the fact that they're qualified to do so.

Knowing officers from the beginning days to current - I'd agree with Teddy's pronouncement.  Several have shared a bit of disappointment in their roles as a TC.


EDIT previous comment that occupied this spot -It was pointed out he ranked out his spot then went back to the conventional side

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Well put.  Very mature.  Thanks for the answer.  I suppose you researched that.  If I wanted a lecture on what an officers role was I would go talk to a Sgt because clearly your lesson plan is a little cluttered.  I asked a legitimate question and expected a legitimate answer "SIR."

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