New .50 Cal For Kingston Class?

[Stoker]

East Coast trials new weapon system
SLt Ryan Bell
HMCS Summerside
November 20, 2006

Crew members from HMCS Summerside spent two weeks in October trialling a new remote controlled heavy machine gun. If the gun gets the eventual thumbs up, it would be part of the navy’s upgrades to the close defence capabilities of Canadian warships. A growing need to upgrade the close defence capabilities of Canadian warships has led to the trial of a remote controlled heavy machine gun.

For 10 days in October, HMCS Summerside supported the weapons trial staff from Canadian Forces Maritime Warfare Centre in gathering data for the Oto Melara Remote Controlled Heavy Machine Gun (RCHMG).

After two weeks of physical installs, which saw the ship’s 40mm Bofors deck gun replaced with the new RCHMG turret, an operator console installed on the bridge, and countless hours of tweaking and rehearsing the drill for the new gun, the ship and gunnery crew were ready to take the gun to sea.

From Oct. 16 to 26, Summerside operated south of Halifax conducting trials of the weapon system, firing thousands of rounds against towed targets.

Summerside’s gun crew, conducting shoots from a variety of distances and angles of approach, sunk a fast in-shore attack craft target and put countless holes in the high speed plastic target.

All members of the gun crew were impressed with the handling and accuracy of the new system. The target results showed the remote controlled heavy machine gun offered many improvements in operator use and target accuracy over the conventional, manual .50-cal system currently in use.

For Summerside’s .50-cal operators, used to physically standing at the mount and operating the gun manually, switching to a remotely controlled weapon took some adjustment. But all agreed the remote system offered numerous operator safety benefits, such as removing the requirement to have personnel on the upper decks during engagements.

Staff at CFMWC is now conducting ashore analysis of the data gathered during the trial to determine the effectiveness of the weapon. If deemed effective, the remote controlled heavy machine gun could be slated for installation throughout the fleet including the Halifax and Kingston class vessels.

Hopefully the ships will get this new weapon system and finally get rid of the old 40MM.

Stoker

 

[Journeyman]

Hopefully the ships will get this new weapon system and finally get rid of the old 40MM.

Let me acknowledge that I'm outside my lane here......

You'd rather "finally get rid of" a heavier calibre weapon, leaving 3 x .50 HMGs? Why not convert the two HMGs on the wings of the bridge to remote-fire, and retain the 40mm? I can see scenarios where both weapons systems might be useful....as well as developing/maintaining the skill sets required for both.

As noted, I'm out of arcs here, and maybe it's just an infantry mindset, but I'd prefer to have all the firepower in the world available - - in terms of options and quantity - - if push comes to shove.

It's not like you sailors have to carry the stuff 

 

[navymich]

Let me acknowledge that I'm outside my lane here......

You wouldn't be the only one JM.  Yes, I would be too, but I also believe that the original poster is as well.  A stoker, as his user name implies, is an engineer.  Onboard an MCDV, they are not part of the weapons safety organization, or do any of the firing of them.  So I am curious as to his comment too.  A bit more background on it, as well as a profile would be nice.

edited to add: Here is a link to the article, as the original poster didn't provide one: http://www.lookoutnewspaper.com/archive/20061120/index.shtml

 

[George Wallace]

JM and AM, I have to agree with you.  I can see the 40mm being removed for the sole purpose of SAFETY, and providing a safe, controlled space in which to conduct the trials.  I cannot see it as being a replacement for the 40mm.  It would probably be mounted on the sides where existing .50 Cal HMG's are currently mounted, and the 40mm replaced back into it's forward mount.

It would be foolhardy to replace a large calibre gun with a smaller calibre HMG.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Geez c'mon guys 3 50s would be best for the MCDVs......don't you know anything???? :

 

[George Wallace]

Geez c'mon guys 3 50s would be best for the MCDVs......don't you know anything???? :

Now wait a minute......Are we going to talk 3 50's or .50 Cals?

 

[navymich]

Geez c'mon guys 3 50s would be best for the MCDVs......don't you know anything???? :

Doesn't matter much to me anymore anyway.  Not my part ship!  ;D 

Although there is a former buffer on the board.  I would be interested in his comments on this.  I'll track him down and point him in this direction.

 

[Thorvald]

I actually just caught the episode of Truth, Duty, Valour the other night on the HMCS Nanaimo (CDV), where they fired both the .50's and the 40mm.    Now you can only judge so much by a quick TV documentary, but while it is fresh in my mind... I'll jump into the fray.

Based upon the amount of safety preparation it took to simply fire the .50 I can see some members looking forward to a remotely operated station...  : ;D

However they didn't go into great detail on how much preparation it took to fire the 40mm but they certainly didn't seem to have any issues with it (besides the fact they were only allowed to fire very small/short salvos which seemed slightly odd but not being a Navy type, there must be a perfectly good reason).

Out of curiosity, what brought this about?  Are our 40mm mounts ancient or something?

Cheers
  Tim

 

[navymich]

  Are our 40mm mounts ancient or something?

Yes.  I am not a SME on these, by any means, but here are a couple of quotes to get you started.

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/id-mcdv-midlife2.htm

...but the main armament is a  40mm L/60 Bofors.  This gun is a museum piece dating back  to 1944.  Even as training weapons,  the Bofors is of  dubious value  –  they were just on hand and  lowered costs.

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/current/kingston/

The guns carried by these ships are Second World War surplus, and are very limited in capability. These guns have been in the Navy for many years, serving on such ships as the PRESTONIAN class ocean escorts, TRIBAL class and ST. LAURENT class destroyers, Bay class minesweepers, Porte class gate vessels, and in Europe on airbases for anti-aircraft defence.

 

[fear-acfhuinn luinge]

I've read the article about SUMMERSIDE's trials, and suspect, since there isn't a ton of evidence, that the new mounting will replace only the 40mm mount in the short term while leaving the existing gun deck mountings intact. That, of course may change in the coming years as the effectiveness of the new mount is established.

While I personally like the 40mm, I also acknowledge the limited usefullness of an unstabilized optically aimed weapon on a platform that moves as much as an MCDV - (can you say rolls on wet grass). The new .50 turret will allow for far better accuracy but the myth of better protection is still that - a myth. Whether you're standing on the gundeck or inside the bridge behind 3/8 steel plate, the guncrew is still well and truly exposed to shrapnel and blast injuries.

Anyway, at least some progress is being made, and the workhorses of the fleet are getting at least some of the attention the glory boys on the floating hotels get.  ;D

 

[aesop081]

warning shots and disabling fire in MIO situations

You actualy think that the MCDV has a role in MIO ?

 

[aesop081]

Well they do SOVPAT and FISHPAT.  I read it in a book once.........

Unless they are chassing rowboats...who are they going to stop ?

just curious.As my knowledge of the Kingston class limits itself to knowing what they look like and being on Whitehorse once.  Seems to me they lack the speed for MIO and that a unless they are trying to stop a small fising boat, a .50 cal wouldnt be much use if they are trying to stop and board anything like a group 1 or 3 vessel. 

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.otomelara.it/products/products.asp?id=prod_naval_small

Here's the link to Otomelara's glossies on the RCHMG.  CASR has some other options available (http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-navy-rchmg-project.htm)

I think Ex-Dragoon brought up the subject of increasing the calibre of the HMGs to 25mm.  Maybe the .50 was a proof of concept trial?  If it works with the .50 then perhaps a larger caliber can be trialled to replace the 40mm?

 

[Stoker]

You wouldn't be the only one JM.  Yes, I would be too, but I also believe that the original poster is as well.  A stoker, as his user name implies, is an engineer.  Onboard an MCDV, they are not part of the weapons safety organization, or do any of the firing of them.  So I am curious as to his comment too.  A bit more background on it, as well as a profile would be nice.

edited to add: Here is a link to the article, as the original poster didn't provide one: http://www.lookoutnewspaper.com/archive/20061120/index.shtml

No i'm not part of the weapons safety organization but I know from experience that the 40MM is maintenance intensive, for what the ships do the RCHMG can easily serve the same purpose. The weapon is easy to operate, maintain and the ship can store a lot more ammunition. The weapon system can increase the surveillance capability of the platform as well. The cost saved in preventive and corrective maintenance and training makes it attractive.

 

[Kirkhill]

The weapon system can increase the surveillance capability of the platform as well.

That's a really interesting point,  for all vessels.  The Dutch are installing one (1) Long Range E/O system (Sirius?) on their new vessels and I believe we are looking at something similar?  The Remote Weapons Systems all seem to come with excellent day and night optics that would enhance the ability of operators to conduct surveillance (vice standing on the bridge wings with binoculars).

 

[aesop081]

Kind of like a Cp-140 doing ASUW, you can always drop a sonobouy on there heads.

ASuW for the CP-140 involves OTHT and SURPIC so yes we do have a role in ASuW beyond dropping SSQs on people's heads  :

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The US is using 25mm bushmasters on shipboard mounts for dealing with small craft. This combined with the new mount would be quite nice.

The fact that they even mounted guns on these vessel was a huge step up for Canada. The 40mm has had a long and successfully career aboard a large variety of different vessels, both in the AA and anti-vessel role. Plus there is a large selection of ammo for it on the market. Should it be replaced with a more capable mount? Yes and there are quite a few options out there.

 

[1feral1]

The US is using 25mm bushmasters on shipboard mounts for dealing with small craft.

The RAN too has a naval version of the M242 25mm CG. I seen one up in Darwin earlier this year. Its fired from a RWS pod, so the beast is unmanned. Impressive!

Cheers,

Wes

 

[GO!!!]

The US is using 25mm bushmasters on shipboard mounts for dealing with small craft. This combined with the new mount would be quite nice.

Now if I ran the CF, I would take a weapon we already use in a few vehicles, and recognise an even greater cost savings in ammo, training and technicians by using it on a ship, especially given the precedent set by our similarly armed allies.

Or we could buy yet another piece of overpriced, overly complicated, un-battle tested european kit, just to thumb our nose at the US.  :

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/53132.0.html