Legion Poppy Copyright issues (bikers, NHL, etc.)

[Occam]

Is it any wonder the Legion is suffering from a shortage of new members?

If you'd like to see the offending poppy, go to http://www.cvfr.ca/ and look on the soldier's helmet.  Have a magnifying glass at the ready.



Shared in accordance with the usual caveats...

Original link

Legion tells biker vets: No poppy for you

By Scott Taylor, QMI Agency

OTTAWA — The iconic poem In Flanders Fields immortalized the poppy as a symbol of remembrance for Canadian soldiers since the First World War.

But it's also a registered trademark, owned and so closely guarded by the Royal Canadian Legion that a motorcycle club of veterans isn't allowed to include a small one in its own logo without lawyers threatening legal action.

Capt. Michael Blow, president of the Canadian Veteran Freedom Riders (CVFR), who devoted 35 years of his life to the military, has one in his club's crest. It's a little difficult to see, but it's there.

And the Legion doesn't like that one bit.

They had a law firm send a letter to Blow insisting he and his crew of more than 70 riders and veterans immediately remove the image of the poppy from their logo.

The letter says, in part:

"If we do not have a satisfactory reply within two weeks of the date of this letter, we shall recommend to the Legion that it commence immediate legal proceedings."

The CVFR sometimes raises funds for vets who need help. Blow thought they were all on the same side.

"I honestly don't know how an organization that continually spouts off about how they respect vets can legally hold a copyright on a symbol of remembrance," he said. "I wear the patch for support and honourary respect of veterans."

The poppy is certainly not the focal point of the crest, and he said it's modelled after the British version, but it's the principle that irks him the most.

"For the Legion to turn around and threaten me with litigation because I'm using the poppy is not morally right," he said.

Legion secretary Bill Maxwell agreed it might not sound fair, but there's a reason for the trademark.

"Normally, for personal or private logos, we don't authorize use of the poppy. The poppy trademark was registered in 1948 to ensure that it would never be used for commercial or personal gain or used inappropriately."

He added the image on any logo in the country would most probably not be approved for that reason.

"That's because it's not being used as a symbol of remembrance, but as part of a logo."

Blow scoffed at that.

"Remembrance is the only reason I'm using it," he said.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Irony defined:  The Bikers patch is also copyrighted (#1077086)...

 

[FlyingDutchman]

On the one hand, trademarks must be enforced.  If they let it slide, they can be forced to give up the trademark and then the poppy can be used for what ever purpose by anyone (from what I understand about trademark law, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.)  I would be put off by unflattering depictions.

On the other hand, those are vets who want to use the poppy for remembrance.  People who served our country, and should be honored accordingly.  Perhaps a -small- out of court settlement could be reached to allow them to continue the use of the poppy.  Another solution could be showing the poppy from a different angle, or are all depictions of the poppy trademarked?

 

[Teeps74]

One of the many examples for why I no longer go near the Legions.

 

[FlyingDutchman]

Irony defined:  The Bikers patch is also copyrighted (#1077086)...

Quick googling brought this up.

Copyrights are typically related to original works of authorship, like a book or poem or screenplay or music (lyrics or music), while a trademark relates to brand names, slogans and logos.

So, we have something that is an original piece of work which uses a brand logo.

 

[Journeyman]

One of the many examples for why I no longer go near the Legions.

:goodpost:

But that being said, aren't you afraid of the Legion lawyers, with you having a poppy as your icon at this time of year? 

 

[jollyjacktar]

I took the time to write the RCL last night and told them what I thought of them being anal like this.

 

[The Bread Guy]

On the other hand, those are vets who want to use the poppy for remembrance.  People who served our country, and should be honored accordingly.  Perhaps a -small- out of court settlement could be reached to allow them to continue the use of the poppy.  Another solution could be showing the poppy from a different angle, or are all depictions of the poppy trademarked?

I'm guessing it's the four-petal poppy image w/the black centre that's copyrighted.  I note the Brit two-petal poppy image (attached and shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.) is also copyrighted.  Mind you, I can't find stories (yet) about the U.K. Legion trying to stop groups from usurping the symbol.

 

[chrisf]

If they let it slide, they can be forced to give up the trademark and then the poppy can be used for what ever purpose by anyone .

They could just give specific written permission to use it, different then just not enforcing their trademark...

 

[Teeps74]

:goodpost:

But that being said, aren't you afraid of the Legion lawyers, with you having a poppy as your icon at this time of year? 

They can sue me... Does that mean they get my debts? Perhaps I would just filibuster them into exhaustion... I was always good at procrastination.

 

[Michael OLeary]

It's time this was challenged by someone. While the Legion may have trademarked their particular drawing of the poppy icon, it doesn't (nor in my opinion ever has) stood solely as a Legion symbol. They have promoted it as a symbol of Remembrance above and beyond any direct Legion connection. No-one sees a poppy and thinks "oh, the Legion must have been here" or "that person must have been sold that poppy by a Legionnaire." They've made their own bed, perhaps they should have trademarked it as "The Legion Poppy" and made certain that it was only sold and referred to as such.

Although this source is most likely primarily American in its legal contexts, its premise applies: Genericized trademark

 

[dapaterson]

A quick bit of hunting, and you can see the poppy that's trademarked by the Legion:

http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/vwTrdmrk.do;jsessionid=0001RAnz-4cUTejWJK-JyD9Egt2:-52L6HB?lang=eng&status=OK&fileNumber=1094997&extension=0&startingDocumentIndexOnPage=31

http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/vwTrdmrk.do;jsessionid=0001RAnz-4cUTejWJK-JyD9Egt2:-52L6HB?lang=eng&status=OK&fileNumber=0980289&extension=0&startingDocumentIndexOnPage=31


Thus, using the UK version in Canada should permit folks to avoid engaging the Legion.

(Note:  I am not a lawyer.  Even if I was, taking legal advice from a random person on the internet is not advisable).

 

[PuckChaser]

Check out the CVFR website, "In the Press". Second story has them holding a ceremony in Orleans at the Legion as a "shadow repatriation". Legion wants them to be there and drink their beer...

 

[57Chevy]

or used inappropriately

Someone please explain to me how they are using it inappropriately.

Let them take it to court.

 

[Danjanou]

It's time this was challenged by someone. While the Legion may have trademarked their particular drawing of the poppy icon, it doesn't (nor in my opinion ever has) stood solely as a Legion symbol. They have promoted it as a symbol of Remembrance above and beyond any direct Legion connection. No-one sees a poppy and thinks "oh, the Legion must have been here" or "that person must have been sold that poppy by a Legionnaire." They've made their own bed, perhaps they should have trademarked it as "The Legion Poppy" and made certain that it was only sold and referred to as such.

Although this source is most likely primarily American in its legal contexts, its premise applies: Genericized trademark

I agree.  It's seems every year around now the Legion manages to literally shoot itself in the foot, be it this or the old lady making poppy cookies to honour those who make that last trip down the 401 from Trenton. The "leadership" is selfserving and needs to be dealt with, and I'm speaking as a Legion member. :

 

[Edward Campbell]

The solution is simple: everyone, except the RCL, should stop using the poppy. Stop buying them, stop wearing them, stop displaying them.

The poppy was selected as our "symbol of remembrance" for pretty obvious reasons:

It used to be that they were worn on Remembrance Day only, then, gradually, we went to wearing them for a whole week before Remembrance Day, then from 1 Nov onward. Now I see them in late Oct and every time some people say the word "veteran" (a class of people to whom the poppy does not apply) they whip out their poppy and pin it on their lapel. The poppy has gone from being part of a "Act of Remembrance" to being a prop without which the well dressed politico or newsreader must never be seen.

By all means wear your poppy, the one your bought last year, on 11 Nov - but let's let the darned thing wither and die.

"All these were honoured in their generations, and were the glory of their times.
And some there be, which have no memorial; who are perished, as though they had never been; and are become as though they had never been born; and their children after them.
But these were merciful men, whose righteousness hath not been forgotten.
Their bodies are buried in peace; but their name liveth for evermore."
Ecclesiasticus 44:7, 9, 10& 14

They, our war dead, don't need poppies because they "were the glory of their times" and "their name liveth for evermore" - that's probably sufficient.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The trademark brand and copyright images can be licensed by the Legion for certain uses in accordance with their brand guidelines.
Anyway, trademark licensing is one of the intended purposes of having a trademark registration system. 

 

[Spooks]

Forgive my possible ignorance here, but isn't the case with copyright laws that if you use the original material in a composition IOT make something new, then you are not breaking copyright laws? I thought that was the rule protecting musical artists that sample each other or digital artists that use pieces/sample from other's work.

 

[dapaterson]

This is trademark, not copyright law.  There are significant differences.

However, the TM of the Legion is quite specific in terms of design.  Using the UK style of poppy would not be covered by the Legion's TM; similarly, the white poppies used by some groups are also not covered.

 

[Edward Campbell]

This is trademark, not copyright law.  There are significant differences.

However, the TM of the Legion is quite specific in terms of design.  Using the UK style of poppy would not be covered by the Legion's TM; similarly, the white poppies used by some groups are also not covered.

Then perhaps, in order not to offend the RCL's legal rights, members who use the poppy as their avatar should change to something like this: