Kabul health/lungs concern

[abimopectore]

When Canadians started their tours in Afghanistan there were serious warnings about fecal matter and other air-born nasty things floating around. Germans and Brits have done their studies at the time and said that it is a serious problem. Our experts did theirs and said that there is not problem. They did their tests around Kabul (in stationary conditions). All the soldiers did their job walking and driving through the dust clouds. Then it was said that concerns will be included/written down in their med files.
Does anyone know about any health problems/concerns/patterns that soldiers are coming with after the tours in Afghanistan?

 

[Gunner98]

Can you cite any references to support your statement,"Germans and Brits have done their studies at the time and said that it is a serious problem."  DND's published info includes:  http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Feature_Story/2004/jan04/16_f_e.asp

"A review of the scientific evidence showed that feces in dust is not recognized as an inhalation hazard. Moreover, discussions with scientific experts in Canada concluded that a person breathing in microbes in fecal material in the dust would not be at risk for an infection. Reasons for this lack of infectious risk include:

- the vast majority of microbes in our environment are not harmful to humans;

- most of the microbes in fecal material are no longer alive, e.g. having been killed by the ultraviolet light of the sun or the very low environmental humidity;

- The body has numerous mechanisms to protect itself against environmental organisms; and

- The microbes in fecal matter that do produce infection enter the body through the digestive system (swallowing) and not through the respiratory system (breathing).

Given no medical concern that such microbes present a hazard, the EIHH SSTs did not include testing for fecal microbes in dust as part of their specimen collection or analysis."

 

[MadNad]

I deployed to Kabul, to build up the site.

I know that some people got sick (Including me) prior to the deployment of the full TF. But most of the time it was due to bad condition. We did not have showers and all accomodations for the first 2 weeks. We did have to use a lot of alcool hand cleaner like they used in hospital. And we were warned by the Pmed that went with us about the risk of dirt and dust. Some of us got, what they called nicely'The Kabul Bug' to say nicely you had to spend about 24Hrs very closed to a Blue Rocket (when Available). Personnally, after the return from there we only heard about minor stomach problems, but nothing that stayed on the long run. Could have been due to change of diet, IMP's and the curry spice that we had in every meals after the 'Chip Wagon' was setup. Returning home with normal food 'Mcdonald and Tim Horton' was quite hard on our stomach HAHAHAHAHA.

But i did not hear about any major sick peoples from our crew.

 

[abimopectore]

MadNad - great info - thank you very much.

Gunner98 - great "party line" obviously you were not there.

You want some "scientific" proof - been there, spoken to the German and British doctors.

Cheers

 

[Gunner98]

abimopectore says, "Germans and Brits have done their studies at the time and said that it is a serious problem."  Then questions where I have been.  Goes on to state "Been there spoken to..."  What happened to those studies.  Or is it "obvious" that you want us to take you at your word. 

No, I wasn't in Afghanistan but the conspriacy mongers are everywhere. I just spent 7 weeks in Wainwright where we had several outbreaks of GI illnesses.  They did not last for 24 hours, more like 7 days on IV and Gravol.  If you are looking for reasons for the Kabul Bug or the Cornwallis or Mega Crud or the Gagetown Gripe, it is simply personal hygiene issues brought on by people not washing their hands before touching food, especially fruit.

 

[KevinB]

Well I for one amongst others I know have fecces and urine splashed/poured and sprayed on us during patrols -- one of our guys had a chamberpot bucket tossed on him at night - he was covered throughout the patrol.

Some of us got sick - but for air quality I had a lot worse at the Kelowna house fires...

 

[Infanteer]

Considering armies have campaigned throughout Afghanistan for centuries, I'm sure it is not some biological deathbed awaiting to kill any foreigner....

 

[abimopectore]

dear Gunner98,

for someone working in one of the "healping professions" (the red cross thing on the picture?) you do not exude much compassion
if I remember correctly, your scientific world said that there was no problem with the use of agent orange? 
Cheers

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

What kind of STUPID analogy is that?.....let me spell this out for ya, relevant facts to your question are what is required here.
Otherwise pack your chute.....

 

[geo]

Abimopectore.
Do you have any reference to those Brit & German studies?
You have to provide us with a little bit of meat if you want us to provide you with some detective legwork

Have a nice day!

 

[Gunner98]

Abimopectore

All of us helping professionals are the ones who do the studies and serve right alongside the doubters like you. The DND-study is the "party-line", produced by uniformed people just like you and published in the public domain. So I provided it for a baseline to compare it to yours, which you are yet to produce.   I have a lot of compassion and am one of those there to help when people forget to wash their hands and wonder why they are sick or don't wear their protective gear and get hurt.

I think MGen Leslie said it best on CTV in Jan 2004 @ http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1074190818826_69600018?s_name= (profanity is a direct quote so I won't disguise it.)

"He also tried to reassure the troops that their health should not have been adversely affected by pollutants in the air around Kabul, trying to dispell a rumour that one-third of pollutants in the air consist of fecal dust. "There's been 400 air samplings taken and nothing significant has been found," Leslie stressed.
"The urban myth that the air is composed of 30 per cent fecal matter is bullshit." That didn't stop one soldier from later asking Leslie whether concerns about the air quality will be written into their official medical records. "Everyone who is here will get something put in your medical files, absolutely everybody," assured Leslie. "I'm like you, I'm kind of interested in this issue as well," he added.
"So if it goes on my file, it's going to go on yours."

So I ask is it recorded on your medical or personnel file?   Anyone else checked their files lately?

 

[geo]

There will be a notation on your file that you served in Kabul between such a date and such a date.... why should there be more.
If it is determined at a later date that members who have served in Kabul or Kandahar were exposed to toxins and that they are at risk..... that entry alone should be adequate.

Is there reason to put an entry that says; maybe, possibly or there is a chance that ?
it would be a meaningless & possibly false entry liable to confuse the staff weenies that would deal with your file...

IMHO

 

[armyvern]

I know that some people got sick (Including me) prior to the deployment of the full TF. But most of the time it was due to bad condition. We did not have showers and all accomodations for the first 2 weeks. We did have to use a lot of alcool hand cleaner like they used in hospital. And we were warned by the Pmed that went with us about the risk of dirt and dust. Some of us got, what they called nicely'The Kabul Bug' to say nicely you had to spend about 24Hrs very closed to a Blue Rocket (when Available). Personnally, after the return from there we only heard about minor stomach problems, but nothing that stayed on the long run. Could have been due to change of diet, IMP's and the curry spice that we had in every meals after the 'Chip Wagon' was setup. Returning home with normal food 'Mcdonald and Tim Horton' was quite hard on our stomach HAHAHAHAHA.
But i did not hear about any major sick peoples from our crew.

Abimopectore...
Do not take this input as meaning there is anything wrong in Afgh. As you will find yourself very quickly being re-buffed, especially if offering it up as 'proof' anything was wrong in-theatre. This condition is known as "yalla yalla" (or Quick! quick!) in the Golan Heights, and was also being called yalla yalla by the new personnel at CM who suffered from it. Change in diet, partaking of the local foods etc can cause this. This is also suffered by many tourists who simply eat the local food etc while on vacation in parts south such as Mexico. Normal stuff. And PS, after my tours, when I got back to Canada, it took me awhile to get used to eating Big Macs etc all over again....normal stuff and occurances. It was quite the treat to watch the newbies come in and suffer from this condition...running for the blue rockets etc....nothing to worry about though as long as you WASH YOUR HANDS etc.

 

[KevinB]

I got dysentery in Cyprus -- whoa that sucked...

 

[medicineman]

    I was on the TAT for Kabul, and yes the "Crud" as we decided to name it was quite a handful.  I seem to recall a full isolation tent more often than not when things were at the worst.  But this wasn't a Canadian only problem.  The vast majority of KMNB suffered from this and a bunch of food borne ailments as well.  A German epedimiologist actually came in and looked at what was happening and concluded it was viral in nature - there were some (apparently) verified cases of salmonella with the Italians.  And, as someone so aptly mentioned, you have to wash your hands - lots.

    BTW, I did get this bug as well - but myself and one of my coworkers escaped with just a run down feeling and mild diarrhea for a day or so; another guy with me was in the isolation tent for almost a week.

MM

 

[armyvern]

I got dysentery in Cyprus -- whoa that sucked...

Yeah...   ;D ... and I got yalla yalla in Syria (twice!!) but man, the local food was worth it!! It sucked for like 24hours and I lost a few pounds, which I quickly gained back by partaking of fluids!!

 

[KevinB]

Yeah I would agree -- My time in afghan sucked for local food exploration.

Back to the topic at hand:  I was much more concerned from stepping in a shitpit (literally) - doing a CP task aong with the FST guys I put my leg knee deep into a pit that was a locals toilet.  I think paracowboy had a similar experience.

Make no mistake about driving thru Kabul with the window down was an interesting experience -- the open garbage dumps and lack of sewage system left a distinct taste in your mouth -

 

[Franko]

Let's see. I've been in country since the start of August so I'll chime in.......

The air is something to experience, as Kevin and a few others have alluded to.

However the main problem over here is the dust and exhaust from vehicles in the main city itself. I've come off a few patrols and looked at my shmaeg and it was a nice shad of black. So much for fecal matter. I've also been in a few town and stepped into some "floor pie" as well.

I've also had the "Kabul crud"....4 days worth so far. I've talked to the medics and they atribute it to too much water intake, change of diet, and not washing your hands.

As soon as I reduced my water and upped my washing of hands I have'nt had a round two.....yet.

My brother in-law was bed ridden with IV for 5 days.

Now I'm out in a FOB far away from Kabul and Kandahar......let's see what happens here. The dust settles there like flour, most times ankle to calf deep. I'm already coughing up a storm..........

Methinks this will be harder to deal with.

Regards

 

[geo]

hehe.... Think of it as breathing (and ingesting) history.
Alexander the Great's camel - camel dung.
A little bit like going to Shilo MB in the summer - dust, dust everywhere

 

[medicineman]

I have to agree with Franko - there seemed to be more particulate matter in the air from smoke and diesel exhaust than the now infamous "poopy dust".  Having said that, the smells of downtown Kabul I'd take any day to the smells of downtown Port au Prince any day of the week.  Kabul was neat and tidy by comaprison.

MM