"Jungle lanes" what would you do?

[Jarnhamar]

I posed this question to troops who were doing pairs jungle lanes a while ago. I'm big on treating stuff like this as if it were real and posing ethical questions to the soldiers involved- relative to what might happen 'real world'.

The range;
You and a fire team partner advance up 300 meters of jungle lanes engaging 7 banks of figure 11 targets on the lockheed martin popup machines, armed with a C7, 5 mags and a bayonet.

The scenario;

You and your fire team partner are at an OP when you are ordered to collapse the Op and make your back to the FOB located a few hundred meters away through the jungle.  A number of enemy soldiers have infiltrated the jungle between you and your FOB and are engaging you with small arms as you try and pass

The question I posed.
Once you engage a position and do a check of the enemy on your way past you notice he's still alive, what do you do?

-Shoot/grenade the position to make sure the enemy is dead and you're not leaving a threat at your back.
-Leave him wounded man and continue to the safety of your position.
-Stop and provide medical aid
-Something else?

 

[aesop081]

Leave the wounded. Tactical situation does not allow the treatment of the enemy casualty.

There's no dilemma here. Wounding the enemy does not automatically create an obligation to treat him.

 

[MikeL]

You didn't mention if he was still a threat or not.  Distance between yourself and the enemy combatant?

Also,  is there other enemy in the area - known or unknown/possible?  Any timings to meet?  Radio?



From what I've read and assumed,  I would make sure he is not a threat before carrying on to the FOB.  2 guys on their own in bad guy land,  not going to want to stick around as more bad guys may be coming.  Make note of location(mark grid if you have GPS) and report it as well as everything else at the Coy CP back in the FOB.


If the enemy has a weapon on him and is still moving I would shoot as I would believe the enemy to be a threat still.

 

[Remius]

I'd leave him.  But I'd assertain if he was a threat before carrying on.

 

[Armymedic]

One round, aimed shot, bad dude check if tactically feasible, otherwise leave them. Anyone left alive behind you who knows your team's strength and track is a liability.

And hope like hell you make it back alive to face the court martial.

 

[chrisf]

I'm not an expert in the Geneva convention by any means... but court martial for what?

Has the enemy combatant surrendered? If not, still a lawful target isn't he?

 

[brihard]

I'm not an expert in the Geneva convention by any means... but court martial for what?

Has the enemy combatant surrendered? If not, still a lawful target isn't he?

An enemy who is manifestly hors de combat by virtue of wounds is protected by international law as well. They need not have actively surrendered if it should be apparent to a reasonable person, taking circumstances into account, that they are incapable of fighting.

 

[MeatheadMick]

Get the MP on your team to take him as a detainee? lol

In all honestly though, you gotta figure you're within 300m to the FOB. Win the fire-fight, disarm threat and carry on to FOB where you can better tactically assess your situation. As was said previously, the situation doesn't allow for immediate first aid when you're still in danger.

First aid could be done as part of the Battle Damage Assessment... some may say that will take too long and the enemy will die... I say, then they shouldn't have been shooting at me.

 

[chrisf]

An enemy who is manifestly hors de combat by virtue of wounds is protected by international law as well. They need not have actively surrendered if it should be apparent to a reasonable person, taking circumstances into account, that they are incapable of fighting.

I guess "wounded" is far to vague of a scenario, and the old adage "situation dictates" applies.

"I know first aid, can I help?" is probably not your best approach if there's any threat.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Does the moral and ethical calculus change if the FOB is in fact a defensive position, and you are collapsing the OP because the main body of the enemy is about to hit your position?

 

[brihard]

Does the moral and ethical calculus change if the FOB is in fact a defensive position, and you are collapsing the OP because the main body of the enemy is about to hit your position?

I don't think threat / not a threat in the case of a wounded enemy is likely to change based on the nature of the FOB...

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure we could 'what if' this to get almost any conceivable result with particular enough circumstances, but that's probably a tad outside the scope of what he's doing with his troops...

 

[Maxadia]

An enemy who is manifestly hors de combat by virtue of wounds is protected by international law as well. They need not have actively surrendered if it should be apparent to a reasonable person, taking circumstances into account, that they are incapable of fighting.

If they are incapable of fighting, then leave them.

 

[medicineman]

I think these are the operative words - there are only 2 of you, you're known to be outnumbered, maybe even surrounded and have 300m of "jungle" to get through.  If the shot dude is in your direct avenue of advance, check him and disarm him (maybe), but I wouldn't linger at all, especially if they're capable of talking.  If he makes like he's still in the fight, finish him off and carry on.  There are more baddies out there than there are you to worry about.

:2c:

MM

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If you kill them all now, you won't have to try rekill them later.

You're withdrawing to a defensive position in contact. Second guessing ethics in this scenario will get you and your fireteam partner killed. You're under no obligation to treat them and they remain a threat if left alive.

:2c:

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I don't think threat / not a threat in the case of a wounded enemy is likely to change based on the nature of the FOB...

Not so much the nature of the FOB as the nature of the conflict.  I have been pondering the impact of fighting a near peer (or at very least non third-rate non-COIN) type of battle in the next go around.  How much of our ROE / innate understanding of the laws of armed conflict have been tainted by a long operation where the people were the center of gravity vice, say, the enemy's cohesion, or freedom of movement, or at the tactical level, armoured capability or "Presidential Guard".  How much have our IA drills on contact / casualty have been shaped by the AStan war?  If I were a commander, would I truly be willing to press the attack to secure objective GUMBY once we have taken 4 KIA and 11 WIA?  Are the troops ready to go through well-rehearsed regrouping drills in order to press the attack?

Perhaps a topic for a different thread....

 

[JorgSlice]

If you kill them all now, you won't have to try rekill them later.

You're withdrawing to a defensive position in contact. Second guessing ethics in this scenario will get you and your fireteam partner killed. You're under no obligation to treat them and they remain a threat if left alive.

:2c:

...and then you have the Capt. Semrau situation happen again. Good men doing good things to save lives end up under the knife.

Second guessing ethics may get someone killed, but what would you rather happen? Leave them alive, they pose a threat, maybe someone gets killed (or multiple); but get to keep your job? Or, you neutralize the threat, maybe saving a life (or multiple), and end up losing your career and forever labelled as "That Guy" in the public world?

Sorry, I'm out of my lane on this one but... It is something I may have to consider in an operational situation. Eventually.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Why did you only wound him first time around, you wanker?

A quick bayonet to the throat to save ammo and avoid drawing attention to yourself and your bad shooting, then slink back with your tail between your legs and report to the CSM for more range work, you idle little man.  ;D

 

[Timmy!]

When is doubt, call in FASTAIR.  >

That was my answer to every ROE question I was asked.

Regards,
Macey.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

...and then you have the Capt. Semrau situation happen again. Good men doing good things to save lives end up under the knife.

Second guessing ethics may get someone killed, but what would you rather happen? Leave them alive, they pose a threat, maybe someone gets killed (or multiple); but get to keep your job? Or, you neutralize the threat, maybe saving a life (or multiple), and end up losing your career and forever labelled as "That Guy" in the public world?

Sorry, I'm out of my lane on this one but... It is something I may have to consider in an operational situation. Eventually.

The tactical situation is not the same.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Do you have a radio, is there a QRF that can b e tasked to support your team? I would radio the FOB with a quick Sit Rep, the OIC may want the prisoner. You may be ordered to take a defensive position to overwatch the wounded while the QRF is outbound. If no radio, 2 of you are not going to be able to move him or secure the scene and treat him. Note the location, if you are right there, grab his weapon and anything of mil Intel interest and get back to the FOB, where the OIC may decide to send out the QRF or a patrol.