Irish regiment

[SEB123]

Do we still have one

 

[pbi]

Yes, we do. I did my tour of RSS duty with Second Battalion, The Irish Regiment of Canada, in Sudbury, ON 1986-1989. The Second Battalion (there was no other battalion) was an "indirect" descendant of the Irish Regiment of Canada, located until its disbandment at Fort York Armoury in Toronto (where I did my Army Reserve service 1974-1982). When the Irish were disbanded (1971??), friends of the Regiment were able to save the name and have it assigned (after a fashion) to an un-named Infantry unit that had just been created in Sudbury by the conversion of a RCEME unit (or it may have been LAA-I can;t recall for sure). During the time I was with the Irish, they were still trying to preserve the dress and traditions of the Irish Regiment. At that time the unit was located only in Sudbury, although we were trying to raise  a platoon in Elliot Lake. The unit exists today as part of 33 Canadian Brigade Group. Cheers.

 

[SEB123]

thanks

 

[Michael Dorosh]

As far as their traditions go, I was on course with a piper from that regiment about 3 years ago in Borden.  They had no Irish headdress, and apparently their RSS was an officer from the Van Doos who had little interest in Regimental tradition - they wore gren berets with the Irish cap badge being the only real indication of who they were.  I imagine the pipe band still wore the kilt, but I didn't get a lot of info on the rest of the unit.  Hopefully things have changed (or I am incorrect). 

 

[Matt_Fisher]

There has also been some work done between the British Columbia Regiment (DCO) and the regimental association for the Irish Fusileers of Canada (which was disbanded/put into inactive status in the 1960's) to do an "amalgamation" of the two regiments.

This "amalgamation" has been a rather contentious issue with quite a few members and former members of the BCRs, and myself included (as a former Duke).  I don't quite understand the benefit of reviving a regiment that's been dead for nearly 40 years and had very little if anything at all in common with the BCRs, other than the shaky belief that both units share an Irish heritage.  The Fusileers being truly Irish, whereas the BCRs only claim to Irish heritage is that they are "The Duke of Connaught's own...", wheras Connaught is a county in Ireland.  

I have nothing against the Irish Fusileers of Canada.  They were an honourable regiment and served in the line proudly.  However it serves no purpose to take two units with nothing in common, and expect the members of the current regiment to adopt alien traditions and heritage that they share no lineage to, which has no serving soldiers that need a new regimental home.

I can understand almagamation when necessary to maximize economies of force, but in this case, there seems little benefit to either of the units, other than giving the Irish Fusileers Association a mess to hold social functions at.  It would have been more appropriate for their association to reserve messing privileges at the 39 Brigade Mess at Jericho, which was the home of their regiment prior to disbandment rather than impart themselves onto a host much the same way tapeworms attach themselves to the intestine.

 

[pbi]

As far as their traditions go, I was on course with a piper from that regiment about 3 years ago in Borden. They had no Irish headdress, and apparently their RSS was an officer from the Van Doos who had little interest in Regimental tradition - they wore gren berets with the Irish cap badge being the only real indication of who they were. I imagine the pipe band still wore the kilt, but I didn't get a lot of info on the rest of the unit. Hopefully things have changed (or I am incorrect).

This is sad news. When I was there, the Caubeen was in general wear, as was the kilt by officers and Snr NCOs on ceremonial occasions. Te unit was establishing a museum and working to preserve its unique status as our last surviving Irish unit. I hope somebody did not get carried away and destroy the traditions of the unit...

There has also been some work done between the British Columbia Regiment (DCO) and the regimental association for the Irish Fusileers of Canada (which was disbanded/put into inactive status in the 1960's) to do an "amalgamation" of the two regiments...I can understand almagamation when necessary to maximize economies of force, but in this case, there seems little benefit to either of the units, other than giving the Irish Fusileers Association a mess to hold social functions at.  It would have been more appropriate for their association to reserve messing privileges at the 39 Brigade Mess at Jericho, which was the home of their regiment prior to disbandment rather than impart themselves onto a host much the same way tapeworms attach themselves to the intestine.

Matt: I quite agree. This seems to be a rather bizarre idea, since you cannot "amalgamate" with a dormant or disbanded unit. As well, during the recent (2003) round of Land Force Reserve Restructure Proposals put forward by each Reserve CBG, 39 CBG (which includes the BCR) did not propose this "amalgamation" (we were the only CBG proposing any amalgamations....) so as far as I can tell it has no official status. If the Irish want to put their stuff up in the Mess, that is a private matter between the BCR and the IFofC Association. Cheers.

 

[sheikyerbouti]

At leats they have been able to raise a pipe band that interacts with the community as opposed to the Seaforths and their complete neglect of the Vancouver area. The pipe band has a traditional uniform that is quite snappy and they have been used quite heavily since their formation.

The issue of uniform is one of money that will not die. IMO it is reprehensible that these uniforms are lost purely to save a few dollars. I realize that initial outlay for the uniforms is quite steep, but with a conscientious QM much can be achieved. People love the uniform and particularily in Vancouver there is much support for these men and women. Distinctive uniform is a morale and recognition builder and should be recognized as such.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

At leats they have been able to raise a pipe band that interacts with the community as opposed to the Seaforths and their complete neglect of the Vancouver area. The pipe band has a traditional uniform that is quite snappy and they have been used quite heavily since their formation.

The issue of uniform is one of money that will not die. IMO it is reprehensible that these uniforms are lost purely to save a few dollars. I realize that initial outlay for the uniforms is quite steep, but with a conscientious QM much can be achieved. People love the uniform and particularily in Vancouver there is much support for these men and women. Distinctive uniform is a morale and recognition builder and should be recognized as such.

Another problem is getting kit back from NES soldiers - tough enough in the city, but aren't a lot of the Sudbury troops from rural areas?  Not the only problem, just one of many for the QM.

We can be angry at cost saving measures all we want; prices these days for uniforms are enormous.  To properly outfit a kilted troop you are looking at 1000 dollars, including cutting away the CF tunic and effectively ruining it for use by anyone not in a Highland, Scottish or Irish regiment.  You need spats, hose, flashes, sporran, kilt, cutaway DEU (which also costs money, can't do it yourself) and headdress.  These are just the basics.  Some units had two different sporrans for each troop, full dress doublets or coatees, two different headdress (field and dress), two types of hose, etc.  Units do have to prioritize, unfortunately.  Luckily our unit is in good shape - an strong regimental association is a key also - so maybe the amalgamation is not so odd, if it draws additional monies into the regimental coffers...

 

[sheikyerbouti]

I have had the pleasure of knowing a few CalHi's and I concur that your regiment enjoys strong support and is still fondly remembered.

Uniform costs may be steep but they can be brought within reason with only a few concessions made. Gucci kit kills bands, regardless of whether they are civilian or forces. Speaking from personal experience, $1000 per complete uniform is reasonable. Many items are infinitely reusable though (case in point: Seaforth cadets were issued uniforms from pre WW2 and were still serviceable and much warmer), kilts, spats, sporrans, hose, headress, slings and instruments can be used on an indefinite basis. Until the mid 90's, as a tenor for the Seaforth cadet band, my drum was made in 1917 and still held its tone although rope tension was certainly a hassle.

In my current band, we have been able to achieve much by purchasing in volume and using a little foresight to gain great savings. An example would be that as an entity, we purchased 2 bolts of 16 oz. military Gordon tartan and secured a kilt maker on favourable terms. If I recall correctly, our real cost of a kilt is somewhere in the region of 250-350 dollars (reuseable although we will sell a member their own kilt upon resignation).

I realize that members from rural areas represent an issue but not one that can be surmounted. As a suggestion, if the price was kept reasonable why not authorize individuals to purchase their own uniform like the Marines do. If a member was expected to purchase a fitted jacket and kilt, the costs are kept lower and would enable the stores to provide the rest of the kit at a lower overall cost.

I would also like to point out that the preponderance of uniforms are irrelevant to their parade needs. An item that gets dragged out of the closet once a year for Remembrance day represents to me a sincere waste.

Uniform demands can be held in check quite easily by keeping the number of outfits down.

I realize that Regimental attire changes with respect to individual unit affiliation but there are certain constants which can reduce demands upon the supply system. A tailored jackets cost can be brought down simply by having a regimental tailor who would appreciate the volume of business and would reflect that  in their price. Much of the kit, notwithstanding certain rules (next to skin) would never leave the units possession (ie: regiment specific attire) and as such would lessen the supply strain.

With respect to outstanding issued kit, the solution is quite simple and very easily implemented. The uniform can be signed out in such a manner that legal recourse is easily available. When kit is signed for, the individual is entered into a contractual obligation to return all items upon their release. From personal observation, all it generally takes is a simple letter from a lawyer sent through registered mail. If the kit is not returned, a bailiff can be authorized to ensure return in a timely manner. As a means of last resort, a simple charge of theft can be applied but this is generally unnecessary.

I apologize for the long winded post but this is an issue that I take personally. Cheers

 

[jmacleod]

Re: The Irish Regiment of Canada - was a Toronto Regiment, raised in World War I and II.
I think the Honorable Barnet Danson M.P. of Toronto, (my opinion, our best Defence Minister)
served in the Irish Regiment, before he transferred to the Queen's Own Rifles (QOR's) another
Toronto Regiment. I noticed the "Brockville Rifles Site" - in World War II, Brockville was a Canadian
Army Officers Training School, for officers commissioned from the ranks. One of the instructors
was the great Toronto Maple Leaf Captain, Syl Apps, a Captain and senior instructor. A lot of
the officers trained there by 1944, had survived very tough fighting in Italy and France, and had
served with a number of famous Regiments, including the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment
(author Farley Mowat served in the "Hasty Pees) the Hamiliton and York's, the Royal Hamilton
Light Intfantry (RHLI) - the list goes on. Many too, were in RCE, RCASC, Postal Corps, etc.
MacLeod

 

[COBRA-6]

Gents, here's the sitrep:

1. The Regiment (2 IR RC) has a new CO, who is very pro-Irish, and has just returned to wearing the caubeen with CF's and CADPAT after a long absence of the traditional Irish head dress. We still wear the kilts, but only with our scarlets for ceremonial occasions or with mess kit. We would like to return to wearing kilts with the CF's, but they are expensive, and as you know the government won't pay for the purchase of them, so it's a matter of fundraising...

2. The Regiment does have an outstanding little museum located in the Sudbury Armoury, maintained by the Regimental Association. We sadly do not, however, have a pipe band. We parade close to 85 now, which is not bad for a small city unit, and the numbers are going up. There are also three(I think) cadet corps affiliated with the unit. Hope this helps.

Fior Go Bas

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Gents, here's the sitrep:

1. The Regiment (2 IR RC) has a new CO, who is very pro-Irish, and has just returned to wearing the caubeen with CF's and CADPAT after a long absence of the traditional Irish head dress. We still wear the kilts, but only with our scarlets for ceremonial occasions or with mess kit. We would like to return to wearing kilts with the CF's, but they are expensive, and as you know the government won't pay for the purchase of them, so it's a matter of fundraising...

2. The Regiment does have an outstanding little museum located in the Sudbury Armoury, maintained by the Regimental Association. We sadly do not, however, have a pipe band. We parade close to 85 now, which is not bad for a small city unit, and the numbers are going up. There are also three(I think) cadet corps affiliated with the unit. Hope this helps.

Fior Go Bas

Damn good news, sir.  AS far as kilts go, I thought all the Irish needed to do was cut up fire blankets and dye them yellow?

If Cpl Phil Dube is still around, I hope he is doing well.  He had just had a baby when we were on course together in Borden a few summers ago, and he was extremely generous with his Ranger blanket, his car and gas, and his bagpipes!  He made a mostly crappy course enjoyable and I can't imagine a better roommate than he turned out to be.  Well, not the same gender anyway.

 

[pbi]

Gents, here's the sitrep:

1. The Regiment (2 IR RC) has a new CO, who is very pro-Irish, and has just returned to wearing the caubeen with CF's and CADPAT after a long absence of the traditional Irish head dress. We still wear the kilts, but only with our scarlets for ceremonial occasions or with mess kit. We would like to return to wearing kilts with the CF's, but they are expensive, and as you know the government won't pay for the purchase of them, so it's a matter of fundraising...

2. The Regiment does have an outstanding little museum located in the Sudbury Armoury, maintained by the Regimental Association. We sadly do not, however, have a pipe band. We parade close to 85 now, which is not bad for a small city unit, and the numbers are going up. There are also three(I think) cadet corps affiliated with the unit. Hope this helps.

Fior Go Bas

Mike: you can't believe how happy I am to hear this news. I was the RSSO 1986-1989, under Al  Nichols and then John Goudreau. Rob Orfankos was the DCO, and CWO Ropp was the RSM. Sgt Maj Bill Hexter (RCR) was my RSS Sgt Maj. The unit was struggling for numbers but had a strong Irish identity. The Museum was just starting out.

Who was the CO who decided to go away from  the Irish tradition? Who is the CO now? Cheers

Fior Go Bas​

 

[COBRA-6]

Cpl Dube is indeed still around and doing well!

The new CO is LCol John Valtonen. I'm not sure who exactly killed the Caubeen, it happened before my time...
John Goudreau has been the Honorary LCol for a while now, and is set to become the Hon Colonel when Jim Miller steps down in the near future. (Col Goudreau still plays a mean game of ball hockey!)

Fior Go Bas

 

[pbi]

Cpl Dube is indeed still around and doing well!

The new CO is LCol John Valtonen. I'm not sure who exactly killed the Caubeen, it happened before my time...
John Goudreau has been the Honorary LCol for a while now, and is set to become the Hon Colonel when Jim Miller steps down in the near future. (Col Goudreau still plays a mean game of ball hockey!)

Fior Go Bas

Thanks Mike. I have an idea who did it. Anyway-Valtonen was a brand new 2Lt when I was there! Good to see John G is the Hon LCol: he was a very good CO. Please say hello to him for me. What became of RSM Ropp? And, BTW, how is Sudbury doing? It was a bit grim when I got there in 1986 but by the time we left in 89 things were starting to pick up. Cheers.

 

[jmacleod]

The Toronto Irish Regiment was created by Irish immigrants to Toronto, most of whom came from Northern Ireland (Ulster) and were of Irish/Scots descent, like the MacLeods who came to Cape
Breton from Ulster in the 1860's. In any event, perhaps the current Irish Regiment might consider
communication with the British Army of Northern Ireland, and make contact with the famous Irish
regiments, like the Royal Inniskilling's, The Royal Ulster Rangers, and British Army Territorial Army
GHQ, Belfast NE. The caubeen should be reinstated, and of course, if possible a Pipe Band. Irish
Regiments wear a kilt, but not a tartan, the "saffron kilt" is the hallmark of the Northern Irish
Regiments. I am sure there would be enthusiastic support in Northern Ireland - be glad to help.
MacLeod

 

[Munner]

"If Cpl Phil Dube is still around, I hope he is doing well."

He was promoted to Master Cpl last night at our soldiers Christmas dinner!

 

[pbi]

The Toronto Irish Regiment was created by Irish immigrants to Toronto, most of whom came from Northern Ireland (Ulster) and were of Irish/Scots descent, like the MacLeods who came to Cape
Breton from Ulster in the 1860's. In any event, perhaps the current Irish Regiment might consider
communication with the British Army of Northern Ireland, and make contact with the famous Irish
regiments, like the Royal Inniskilling's, The Royal Ulster Rangers, and British Army Territorial Army
GHQ, Belfast NE. The caubeen should be reinstated, and of course, if possible a Pipe Band. Irish
Regiments wear a kilt, but not a tartan, the "saffron kilt" is the hallmark of the Northern Irish
Regiments. I am sure there would be enthusiastic support in Northern Ireland - be glad to help.
MacLeod

You will be happy to know that the caubeen and saffron were reinstated some time ago. The Pipe Bamd was a bit more difficult because of the cost and effort involved: when I was in Sudbury the 2IrRC relied on the Copper Cliff Pipes and Drums. The Irish already have the affiliation you refer to. Cheers.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

"If Cpl Phil Dube is still around, I hope he is doing well."

He was promoted to Master Cpl last night at our soldiers Christmas dinner!

Heh, his career is heading downrange at almost the same glacial speed as mine!  Congrats, though, he's now ahead of the game.

 

[Steel Badger]

Irish regt go bas!


I for one am pleased to see that you have reinstated your auld headress and No1's.

One more stick in the eye for old Paul Hellyer!!! >
And serve him right for killing your 1st Bn.