Involvement in Civil Courts

[natalka]

Hi all,

Newbie question here. If after a harassment investigation, it is concluded that no harassment has taken place based on the 5 criteria, and the complainant decides to go thru the civil courts against the respondent....will DND be involved in this by any chance?

 

[Tibbson]

It's a personal matter at that point so the CAF/DND wouldn't be involved. 

 

[Grease monkey101]

I have just received an NOI to for a 5f release, I am being charged with 2 Alcohol misconducts. 1 under sect 129 and 97 of the NDA and the second for charges that were withdrawn by a civil prosecutor, there have not been any convictions of any of the alleged crimes Including the 129 and the 97. No summary trial or court marshal. I must be confused.. does this not infinge on my human rights. The only information that has created this decision was GO report filed by the MP's. I feel like I'm getting a raw deal here and not being afforded due process.

 

[PuckChaser]

You can be 5F without charges. Check your adverse PDRs/IC/RW.

 

[garb811]

I have just received an NOI to for a 5f release, I am being charged with 2 Alcohol misconducts. 1 under sect 129 and 97 of the NDA and the second for charges that were withdrawn by a civil prosecutor, there have not been any convictions of any of the alleged crimes Including the 129 and the 97. No summary trial or court marshal. I must be confused.. does this not infinge on my human rights. The only information that has created this decision was GO report filed by the MP's. I feel like I'm getting a raw deal here and not being afforded due process.

The NOI is the first step in making sure you are afforded due process.  See here for QR&Os Chapter 15 which explains what is going on.  Note that it is an administrative process which does not require a conviction in order to proceed and, even if you are subsequently found not guilty, you can still be released 5F as there is a different burden of proof required for an administrative vice a disciplinary process.

 

[Pusser]

Note that a Notice of Intent is just that, a notice of INTENT.  Your release is not a done deal (otherwise, they would simply serve you with your release papers).  This is your chance to respond to the situation and show your CO why you should NOT be released.  Get your ducks in a row and show your CO what you have done to correct yourself and be a better person.

As for the possible release itself, there are a variety of administrative reasons that come to mind, based on what limited information you have provided:

1) alcohol misuse
2) being an administrative burden
3) poor conduct (i.e. the things you actually did when misusing alcohol)
4) poor performance

None of these things require any kind of conviction in any type of court.  I knew of a LCdr years ago who was administratively released, not because he was convicted of anything, but because he had been charged with something, yet again.

 

[Grease monkey101]

The NOI is for 2 Alcohol misconducts that have come about because of alleged offences.

1 of the misconducts is being proceeded with, even after the civil court withdrew the charges.

The second is from alleged offences, drunkenness and a 129 that I didn't even know of until being given the NOI 5 months after the alleged incident.

I understand that the NOI and Admin Review is just that Administration, but not being afforded due process or the right to defend against the allegations to me seems to be in a direct contradiction to my human rights. The Alcohol misconducts where not misconducts if there was no crime or conviction. Just consuming Alcohol does not constitute a misconduct. 

 

[MJP]

The NOI is for 2 Alcohol misconducts that have come about because of alleged offences.

1 of the misconducts is being proceeded with, even after the civil court withdrew the charges.

The second is from alleged offences, drunkenness and a 129 that I didn't even know of until being given the NOI 5 months after the alleged incident.

I understand that the NOI and Admin Review is just that Administration, but not being afforded due process or the right to defend against the allegations to me seems to be in a direct contradiction to my human rights. The Alcohol misconducts where not misconducts if there was no crime or conviction. Just consuming Alcohol does not constitute a misconduct.

The burden of proof is not criminal charges or conviction. 

Before you continue to dig your heels in your eroding hill you should really need to read and understand:

DAOD 5019-7, Alcohol Misconduct
DAOD 5019-4, Remedial Measures

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If you've been formally charged, get an Assisting Officer. It's their job to steer you through the process and warn you of any pitfalls in your defense. At least they will have the full story and all the details which aren't posted here.

Your career appears to be hanging in the balance, the internet is the wrong place for advice and defence strategy.

 

[PuckChaser]

You did something wrong to get the civilian court sights on you, they didn't proceed but clearly you were in a compromising position. Then your say there's a second set of unrelated events, involving alcohol, but totally not your fault? Instead of googling due process, call your base addictions councilor and work on trying to save your career. Digging your heels in just makes your CoC pull harder to release you.

 

[CountDC]

The Alcohol misconducts where not misconducts if there was no crime or conviction. Just consuming Alcohol does not constitute a misconduct.

and this is a start point for you - misconduct does not require a crime or conviction.  It may be that when drinking you act in a way that is not suitable as a member of the CF.  For example the civil world might not charge you if you are regularly seen in public drunk and puking in public trash cans but that is not the image the CF wants out there so could be considered misconduct leading to a release.  Maybe you should look more at what you are doing to end up in this situation and find a solution.

I hope though that they have tried the counselling by experts route prior to going with the release as I know a few good people have had their careers saved by the coffee course.

 

[Pusser]

I hope though that they have tried the counselling by experts route prior to going with the release as I know a few good people have had their careers saved by the coffee course.

Second that.

I had a young corporal years ago who was served with an NOI for alcohol related incidents.  There were no charges, no convictions or anything like that.  He just seem to get drunk at inappropriate times and could no longer be trusted.  And this was AFTER he had already completed a 28 day Alcohol Rehabilitation Course (ARC - the "Coffee Course").  After reading a 28 page memo outlining where the "system" had failed him, the CO agreed (much to the chagrin of the local trade advisors) that he should go on a second ARC.  This one turned the Cpl's life around.  He had 28 days to save his career and he eventually made Sgt.

 

[donaldk]

After having staffed numerous alcohal related AR files for COs and to DMCA, what everyone has said above is spot on!

The only thing that hasn't been mentioned and for the sake of the thread (not the OP as I don't believe this is the case), NEVER hide the fact of being arrested/charged by civilian police from your CoC.  The CoC has ways of finding out thru the local MPU and its standard practice for an alcohol AR to solicit the MPU to run CPIC for similar charges/convicitons (along with PERs and div file records being unsealed).  I had one fool that decided not to disclose a prior DUI conviction, and got subsequently convicted (both times lied to the CoC)... unfortunately for the lad the local MPU gladly furnished my XO with the needed information (which landed on my lap for processing).  Long story short, DMCA normally goes for a 2(a) release in this case but was lenient and relaxed it to a 5(f) 30 day release.

For the other files I have done where the mbr came clean and proactively sought mental health assistance (coffee course, etc), it was pretty easy to sway the AR file towards retention with a 6 month C&P and convince the CO and DMCA to support such recommendations.