How common are tracer rounds

[Navy_Pete]

Random question, how common are tracer rounds in small arms (things like AK47 or common LMGs)?

If anyone is curious, found this paper on tracer round performance and burn temps;

https://www.scientificbulletin.upb.ro/rev_docs_arhiva/full7d2_820114.pdf

 

[dapaterson]

On a belt, they're 20%

 

[my72jeep]

I don’t know What the ratio is but I know what night during an LMG shoot and you’re in the buts seems like a hell a lot of them

 

[Navy_Pete]

I don’t know What the ratio is but I know what night during an LMG shoot and you’re in the buts seems like a hell a lot of them

Thanks, I've seen that they are commonly every 5th on belts, which probably is a lot at the firing rate,

I guess what I was wondering is how common they are used by sketchy characters that might want to take potshots at us (and more specifically our ships).

It's a long story, but trying to figure out what might happen if someone shot through the hull and hit plywood (generally), but not sure if tracers would catch it on fire.

Trying to get a mad scientist at DRDC to get it tested at one of the army ranges. Fun what you can do in the name of science for destructive testing.

 

[GR66]

Thanks, I've seen that they are commonly every 5th on belts, which probably is a lot at the firing rate,

I guess what I was wondering is how common they are used by sketchy characters that might want to take potshots at us (and more specifically our ships).

It's a long story, but trying to figure out what might happen if someone shot through the hull and hit plywood (generally), but not sure if tracers would catch it on fire.

Trying to get a mad scientist at DRDC to get it tested at one of the army ranges. Fun what you can do in the name of science for destructive testing.

Who the hell would put plywood on a warship????

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Who the hell would put plywood on a warship????

Don’t. Just…don’t.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Thanks, I've seen that they are commonly every 5th on belts, which probably is a lot at the firing rate,

I guess what I was wondering is how common they are used by sketchy characters that might want to take potshots at us (and more specifically our ships).

It's a long story, but trying to figure out what might happen if someone shot through the hull and hit plywood (generally), but not sure if tracers would catch it on fire.

Trying to get a mad scientist at DRDC to get it tested at one of the army ranges. Fun what you can do in the name of science for destructive testing.

I am thinking that the hole in your hull is your first problem. The tracer part just icing on the cake…

I’ve seen tracer start grass fires, but I’ve never really seen them react all that much with range targets (other than put holes or dents in them).

Sounds like a fun project for DRDC, however!

 

[brihard]

For 5.56 and 7.62 link for C9 and C6, they’re every 5th round. I believe it was the same for .50 for the Browning HMG.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Who the hell would put plywood on a warship????

That's what all our NATO counterparts said, and laughed harder when they realized we were serious.

I mean, whatever, just put it on paper and go from there that you aren't going to follow the standard. (ie just follow the RCN order). Tell me to prove it's not safe and I'm asking for money to shoot things, and blow it up. No chance on the planet I'm putting my name against it to say it's safe though.

 

[AmmoTech90]

You can also get 1B1T

 

[Navy_Pete]

Awesome, thanks, sounds like it would be a fun day at the range with a C9 and C6 and some manufactured targets, with a bit of Slow mo camera magic to see if it's splintering as well.

 

[bLUE fOX]

I don't know if this is helpful information, but I work at a CFAD in my day job and we can't issue tracer to a couple of ranges due to the risk of brush fires. I can ask tomorrow for the specifics if you'd like.

 

[KevinB]

Thanks, I've seen that they are commonly every 5th on belts, which probably is a lot at the firing rate,

I guess what I was wondering is how common they are used by sketchy characters that might want to take potshots at us (and more specifically our ships).

It's a long story, but trying to figure out what might happen if someone shot through the hull and hit plywood (generally), but not sure if tracers would catch it on fire.

Trying to get a mad scientist at DRDC to get it tested at one of the army ranges. Fun what you can do in the name of science for destructive testing.

You should be more concerned with API-T. It’s fairly common in 7.62x54R PKM belts…

They burn a car down real good

 

[Navy_Pete]

You should be more concerned with API-T. It’s fairly common in 7.62x54R PKM belts…

They burn a car down real good

Thanks!

I'm always happy to suggest another set of destructive tests!

That's the kind of thing I had in mind though, and figure it might be a fun one for the CEs and others to support as usually those DRDC ranges are colocated with combat arms types.

They've done fun things like fire nail guns into a toughboook battery to see if it exploded (some did) and also play around with IED configurations to tests against different armor setups. So slapping a bit of thin plate in a pseudo ship hull shape and hanging stuff behind it is pretty simple in comparison.

They tend to need a fair bit of lead time but are suprisingly cheap, as all the staff support is already covered.

 

[KevinB]

FWIW we found a bit of Chinese 7.62x39 RPD belts with API-T as well, fresh tins in Iraq and Afghanistan— unsure how common it is in Africa and the Gulf Area, and PKM’s and 7.62x54R API-T Russian and Chinese ammo is everywhere, and a larger threat anyway.

 

[lenaitch]

Who the hell would put plywood on a warship????

Well, there goes the Navy's secret.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I don't know if this is helpful information, but I work at a CFAD in my day job and we can't issue tracer to a couple of ranges due to the risk of brush fires. I can ask tomorrow for the specifics if you'd like.

Non sequitor, but we're actually trialing out a foam replacement that's food safe, and one application is to pre-coat grass around a range to prevent fires, or at least set up a fire break to contain something on a much bigger range (mortar/artie). Working great so far on land testing, so scaling it up now to structure sized stuff and then looking at class B pool fires and li-ion battery fires too. Aside from applying it from a truck, may also be an option to mix it with water and air drop it out of normal rear loading ramp planes and helos for things like forest fires. Also seems to work fine in a standard water extinguisher which is awesome.

Neat stuff, made in Nepean.

FireRein EcoGel - Safer Firefighting Solutions

Tried the hotworx stuff at home for a really tight pipe solder job and did the trick, so pretty handy buy from Princess Auto. It sticks in place and leaves a gel behind (technical term is a non-newtonian fluid) so was able to spray it overhead and give an extra laywer of protection for the areas that weren't really covered by the fire cloth. Something like 97% water so whatever was left just wiped off and otherwise evaporated, so jobs a good'un!

It's under the ISED innovation program, and honestly the first thing I've seen thorugh that pipeline that we may actually use. Usually it's something sexy that the operators get sucked into at CANSEC, but goes no where because it doesn't actually work as advertised once you get past the flashy marketing. This one we pushed along into it because we want it on the tech side, so seems to be going a lot better.

Edit to add: burning stuff for science is awesome. Shooting it first then burning it would be a career highlight. For science.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Is this the stuff made out of canola?

 

[OldSolduer]

I don’t know What the ratio is but I know what night during an LMG shoot and you’re in the buts seems like a hell a lot of them

The normal ratio is 4 ball 1 tracer in 5.56 and 7.62. Aka “4B1T”

.50 HMG ammo is 4 B 1 T in 100 round belts normally,

There are 100 rd belts of tracer for the AA role, THAT is truly something to see. 100 rounds tracer in one burst.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Is this the stuff made out of canola?

And some other common food additives, then mixed with mostly water. It works great, and the other nice bit is you can actually train with it, which we can't do with AFFF or the flourine free foams coming down the pipe.

I tried some on some dry grass at home to see how long it lasted, and took about a day or so in the middle of the summer to evaporate, and had a greener patch of grass.

Uses less water, and think it will also be a bit more efficient in terms of not splashing around as much. It works differently with fuel, and emulsifies it vice floating on top, so needs some different application techniques, but so far is at least promising.

If applied thick enough you can make a little gel damn with it to help contain spills, and good for coating something as well if you are concerned about off gassing or particulate coming off (which is a bigger deal with carbon fibre and other composites post fire) and other kind of random industrial applications like dust control.

Baby steps for now, but can see us using it in extinguishers and at hydrants stations, but some municipal FDs and other industrial fire departments have gone full over for their crash trucks. A lot of the new F3 foams seem to actually be almost worse for health and environment then the modern AFFF, but they are the big PFAS boogeyman. Weirdly still unrestricted in makeup, textiles, food packaging and other every day applications, and somehow the 5% fire fighting usage is getting banned (before any substitutes are avaiable). The transition from AFFF will be a challenge, but really have no choice as we won't be able to buy anymore and our stockpile won't last forever.