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Heavy lift conundrum

I find this argument quite humours, as to how many posters have suggested that the C-130 and C-17 are the only options.   Canada does have a strategic airlifter in the form of 4 A310 multirole transport (MRT), aka: the CC-150 Polaris with 2 of the 4 being converted to multirole tanker transport standard (MRTT); a fifth is a dedicated MRT-VIP variant with limited stategic capability. The CC-150 MRT/MRTT are great for airline style strategic airlfit.   However, the CF's Future Strategic Airlift (FSA) project is designed to acquire a roll-on/roll-off airlfiter for "out-sized" loads, ie. light armoured vehicles, large wheeled support vehicles (HLVW), bulky cargo, helicopters, and the like.   The C-130J/J-30 is not a strategic airlifter.   The C-130J/J-30 has only been inlcuded as a competitor b/c Lockheed Martin is a very powerful defence manufacturer; indeed if you read the reports over the last few years the C-130 was openly excluded by CAF officers in the FSA project office in interviews.   The only options presented were and are the C-17, improved variants of the Il-76 (a Ukrainian, not Russian aircraft), the A400M, and lease arrangements of civillian owned strategic airlfiters.   In reality, the only legitimate options are the A400M and the C-17.

I believe the procurement, operating, and support costs of the C-17 are too prohibitive for the CF.   The CF could procure only small numbers of the C-17 a maximum of 8, if the CF went head over heels for the C-17.   The procurement of even 4 C-17 would be extremely draining on the CF's capital procurement budge.   4 X C-17 @ $300 million would cost $1.2 billion, but only be useful for strategic airlift, because they are not designed for anything else other than heavy tactical airlfit.   Even the Americans who operate over 100 and are building 220 of the C-17 use the C-17 primarly as a strategic airlifter, b/c they are such a precious resource.   Don't get me wrong, the C-17 is an incredible aircraft, but will come at the cost of reduced numbers of Hercules, if that aircraft is retained.   If a decision was made to procure substantial numbers of C-17 it would come in the form of at most 12 C-17, and no more Hercs, which would amount to $3.6 billion, but a large number of dedicated SAR and light transport aircraft would be needed as the C-17 can not be used affordably in the SAR and in the light transport role.   More importantly, small numbers of C-17 would be less flexible in terms of availability and the loss of just 1 C-17 due to accident or an operational destruction would see a huge loss in airlfit capability.   Furthermore, the C-17 can not be used as a tactical air-to-air refueller as the CC-130H (T) is used today.   Could the C-17 be used in the operational and training tactical airlift role, probably not; I do not believe the CAF would risk flying a $300 million dollar aircraft at low level, an inherently dangerous type of flying.   Is there a better strategic airlfit alternative?

For those of you who don't know the A400M is a strategic-tactical airlfiter a third more expensive than the C-130J/J-30, but half the cost of a C-17 with twice the payload of the C-130J-30; for more detailed performance info check out www.airbusmilitary.com .The A400M is entering production with orders for Great Britain (25), Belgium (7), France (50), Germany (60), Spain (27), Luxembourg (1), and Turkery (10); these are all NATO countries.   The A400M was specifically designed to overcome the strategic shortcomings of the C-130 sized aircraft while simultaneously maintaining equal or reduced operating costs.   The CAF could acquire 24 A400M for the same cost of 32 C-130J-30, but would acquire the lifting capability equivalent 48 C-130J-30.   I would suggest complementing the A400M with a buy of roughly 24 C-27J for SAR and light transport duties within Canada, with some capable of overseas deployment when a light tactical airlifter is preferrential.   The cost of a fleet of 24 A400M and 24 C-27J would amount to $3.6 billion and $1.2 billion respectively for the actual procurement and a comprehensive initial support training package.   The latter amounts to $150 million and $50 million for the A400M and C-27J each respectively.   It is important to note that this cost would not come in one year, but would be most likely spread out over decade--as most projects costs are--and the cost would come from within the yearly defence budget rather than as an additional defence cost as most Canadians believe.   This is the biggest problem with defence procurements as I see it, the media, likely some politicians, and most Canadians ignorantly believe, big defence projects are additional costs, but they are always from within the planned defence budgets.   A procurement of A400M and C-27J is the best option to replace the CC-115, CC-130E/H/H (T)/H-30 fleet while simultanously dramatically improving strategic airlift capability.   The one downside to the A400M is that the first aircraft will only begin to come off the production line in 2007 and we need to begin replacing the 19 C-130E and 6 CC-115 as soon as possible.   The easy solution is to bulk buy the C-27J between 2007 and 2010 or as quickly as possiblel to take the light transport and SAR burden off the C-130 fleet and begin procuring the A400M around 2010 at a rate of 3-6 per year of 4 to 8 years.   This would be a cost and military effective way of replacing existing capabilites while simultaneously enhancing strategic airlift.

On an important note, strategic airlift is one component of strategic transport.   Strategic transport is not an effective manner of providing   large scal strategic transport (above army battle group level or equivalent).   Sealift must be incorporated as the primary manner of strategic transport.   Personally, I believe and I would argue know that the Joint Support Ship (JSS) is not a good idea, but that is another subject altogether.
 
What is the service record of the A400M like, when compared to the C-17?

How many Canadians work for Airbus (or any subsidiaries of the A400M program)? Is it a larger number then those Canadians that work for Boeing, or even Lockheed for that mater?

Though they have a few dozen A400Ms on order, why did the RAF purchase C-130Js and lease C-17s? Also, in light of their plans for the A400Ms, why is the RAF going to purchase the C-17s at the end of the lease, plus increase the size of their C-17 fleet?

Also, due to the European orders, what makes you think that Canada could jump ahead in line and start receiving our orders in the 2010 timeframe?

 
I think with the C27j spartan hopefully being purchased will lessen the load for the c130's. I don't think we will be getting 24 of them either.  we should be able to pick up some new or slightly used c130j giving us some time if we are really interested in purchasing the A400m in the near future.
 
I have posted photos of the aircraft discussed here to the phot gallery.  The following graphic is from the manufacturer.
 
The A400M is as yet not in production.

I know.......Call me a skeptic though, but the A400M has been on the drawing board since the early 90s, and still has not made it's maiden flight.......Should the CF invest in a project that might be a success or might flop or a proven aircraft?

 
Also, I am suspicious of an airplane that exists only on paper and is being billed as an Aircraft that can do both the strategic and the tactical airlift game.  As we are learning with the LAV, military platforms designed to be "multi-purpose, system of systems", swiss-army knife wonder purchases usually end up doing none of the tasks as well as a dedicated platform does.
 
I'm with DJL....I don't like the A400M option for a few reasons.

1)  It hasn't yet flown
2)  The European partners keep cutting their orders which to me puts the project in doubt
3)  Even if it made it through everything and became available by 2012 (after existing orders are filled), I have an ethical issue with sending money to the French/Germans who in my opinion through their foreign policy make this world a less-safe place to be, as opposed to the Americans who frankly cover our ass.

JMHO,



Matthew.  :salute:
 
Big Bad John said:
The A400M is as yet not in production.

I'll say... it does not even exist yet! There are still quite a few significant technical hurdles left to clear before it even makes it into a prototype stage. Based on the work to be done, I would call their timelines "ambitious." With many of our Hercs already past 40 years of age, I'm afraid that we simply cannot wait to see if the A400 meets its promises.

I stand by my earlier assertion that the C-17 is the only logical choice for Canada's strat airlift requirements.

Sam
 
canuck101 said:
I think with the C27j spartan hopefully being purchased will lessen the load for the c130's. I don't think we will be getting 24 of them either.  

The "official" word is 15 aircraft for FWSAR - keep in mind that these planes will most likely be painted SAR yellow and thus restricted to SAR duties with very light airlift duties inter-spread throughout (ie Skyhawks, Op Hurricane, etc).

Unlike the strategic airlift connundrum - the FW SAR replacement program is a go - expect to see it hit the news in the next couple of months.

I agree with Sam and the lot - the C-17 is the only true option when it comes to Strat-Lift.  Trenton had the architectural drawings all ready for the new C-17 hangar before the last government turned down the ambitious plan.
 
Zoomie, I seem to recall Pratt, and then Graham not ruling out Strat lifters, but both cited the much talked about "defence review" and what results were found from it before deciding on Strategic Airlifters. Even if we do go with a small purchase of C-17s (and the 15 C-27Js), will we still be looking at purchase of new tactical transports? IOW, what are the chances of a mixed fleet of C-27J/C-130Js/
C-17s for the Airforce?
 
Just a question could it be possible to get two or three more A300s for transport.  I was thinking of the problem we had delivering supplies and equipment to Haiti in the summer.  They do have a airport that would support cargo planes you would not have to use c130's for that if you have another plan live our cc150 Polaris.
 
DJL, the official answer to your question about the J model Herc is "not likely" - unofficially it's anybody's guess.

The big problem with our Hercules fleet is the constant strain being placed on them - we can't keep up with maintaining them.  We have older E models that just have to go.  Replacing all of the Hercules aircraft in Greenwood and Winnipeg will take off alot of this imposed strain.  If we relegate the Herc to only 3 squadrons in Trenton (436, 429 and 426) vice the 6 squadrons that presently use them - we will be in a much better situation.  The way that the whole FW SAR replacement project is being swung is that we can reduce the C-130 fleet by a considerable amount - thus increasing the number of spare parts and decreasing the load on the C-130 maintenance community.  No longer would the Hercs be used for SAR and Strat Lift - they could focus 100% on TAL.

Assuming that FW SAR is a go and Strat Lift is the next big ticket item, this is how I see the air mobility community looking in the future.

15 x C-27J Spartan -SAR role with light strat lift
10-15 x C-130H Hercules - Tactical Airlift with light strat lift & tactical air-to-air refuelling (CF-18's)
4 x C-17 III Globemaster - Strategic Airlift
3 x CC-138 Twin Otter - Northern Canada SAR and resupply
4 x CC-115 Challenger - VIP transport
5 x CC-150 Polaris - Strat Lift, Troop transport, strategic air-to-air refuelling, VIP transport



 
Zoomie said:
15 x C-27J Spartan -SAR role with light strat lift
10-15 x C-130H Hercules - Tactical Airlift with light strat lift & tactical air-to-air refuelling (CF-18's)
4 x C-17 III Globemaster - Strategic Airlift
3 x CC-138 Twin Otter - Northern Canada SAR and resupply
4 x CC-115 Challenger - VIP transport
5 x CC-150 Polaris - Strat Lift, Troop transport, strategic air-to-air refuelling, VIP transport

Of course, with a 1$3B budget, you won't have any troops or eqpt to move once we fork out the bucks for that wish list...
 
Thanks Zommie.

15 x C-27J Spartan -SAR role with light strat lift
10-15 x C-130H Hercules - Tactical Airlift with light strat lift & tactical air-to-air refuelling (CF-18's)
4 x C-17 III Globemaster - Strategic Airlift
3 x CC-138 Twin Otter - Northern Canada SAR and resupply
4 x CC-115 Challenger - VIP transport
5 x CC-150 Polaris - Strat Lift, Troop transport, strategic air-to-air refuelling, VIP transport


Of course, with a 1$3B budget, you won't have any troops or eqpt to move once we fork out the bucks for that wish list...

Why's that? As Zoomie just said, the FWSAR replacement is all but a go, so the only aircraft on that "roster" of Zoomie's that we don't have as of yet are the four C-17s.......


 
The problem with your Corporation is how often would it be utilized.


Quote
It is equipped with 12-24 767 size passenger aircraft with Air-Air refuelling capability.  It is also equipped with 12-24 C-17s, and 4-6 LSD(A)s. 

Thats a significant expenditure right there and while I am an advocate for air and sea lift capabilities I think a Corporation set up for said purpose would turn into another gun registry fiasco but at a much grander scale.

Fair comment Ex-Dragoon.  What I was trying to suggest is that such an organization, with a brief for supplying a service for not just DND or even the Canadian Government but other governments and institutions as well as securing private sector business could support a larger fleet than is needed for just our purposes.  Basically horn in on some of the Ukrainian business that is out there flying Antonovs and sailing vessels like the Katie.  I seem to have seen some reports that there is an expected increase in demand for those type of services.

Of course the operation could start on a smaller scale and work up as business improved.  I was kind of hoping WestJet management might get behind the deal.  They seem to have a clue on both how to operate aircraft profitably and grow a business.

Cheers, Chris.

 
A speaker at the U of M's Transformation of Warfare seminar stated "Do we buy the equipment to go into the planes or to we buy the planes to transport the equipment"  I apoligize to the speaker for paraphrasing. 

The main argument I remember from government against Strategic lift was that no other nation with a military proportional to ours has Strategic Lift,,, so we don't need it,,,  but unlike many other nations, Canada is geographically isolated from potential hot spots in the world, a balance is needed between, airlift for rapid deployable forces and sealift for heavy follow on forces,
So far the CF has been able to deploy to hotspots (Haiti and the Stan) so how high of a priority is Strategic Airlift?
 
Canada is geographically isolated from potential hot spots in the world

Heck 2FtOnion Canada is geographically isolated from itself.  If we want to get blankets and emergency generators fom Vancouver to Ottawa the next time the lights go out do they really want us having to go the Washington State Air National Guard to borrow/buy some airlift time again, or even the Ukrainians?

As to your comment on Haiti, is it possible/likely that one of the reasons that we didn't deploy DART after the hurricane is that we didn't have the lift and this time the Americans couldn't/wouldn't supply the lift?

I don't know.  Just rumour-mongering. ;D

Anyway, I agree with your point though.

Cheers.
 
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