Hearing damage

[geofftheref]

Just how loud is it to be inside an M109 SP howitzer when firing ?
How effective are the ear protectors ?
If you wear glasses are the ear protectors less effective ?
How does the crew communicate during firing ?
How many gunners suffer damage to their hearing ?

 

[muskrat89]

Geoff - Loud, probably 130-140dB. ear defenders offer a reduction of approximately 25 dB or so. If you can get ear plugs, they are more effective. Generally, the seals flex enough (liquid filled) that they seal around glasses, but it stands to reason that the effectiveness is affected, somewhat. Generally, the crew flips at least one of their "muffs" up, when communicating, and pull them back down just prior to firing. Also, you can hear loud voice commands, usually, through the ear defenders. I got out in 96, but we were doing a much better job then, enforcing the use of ear defenders, than we were in 83, when I joined. I assume we are even better, now. Hearing damage used to be common amongst Gunners - my Dad had 27 or so years in - he has 2 hearing aids. I have slight hearing loss in one ear (the one whose muff I usually lifted up to hear) Hope that answers your questions. I hope some of the more current Gunners will elaborate on policies of today.

 

[Gunner109]

As far as the M-109 goes, the noise inside the cab is not loud in comparison with what happens outside. Inside the cab it is possible to not wear any defenders at all. I never wor them as a #1. But that doesnt mean that people should not wear them. On the other hand, Outside is a diffrent story. The sound of the blast and concusion of a M 109 firing can be very severe. So I guess the lesson learned here is when in doubt, wear your hearing protection!

 

[RCA]

I haven‘t meet a gunner with a few years in that isn‘t a little deaf. I‘ve done almost all my time on 105s, and I find that if more then one person is taking, or someone whispers (or other low noises), I have troulbe hearing them. And I‘ve over 20 yrs on the the guns. Gunners don‘t sat "eh" because they are Canadian.

At least nowadays, hearing protection is enforced, both live and on salutes. I can confirm its worse on the outside of a 109 then inside, especially if you are standing beside as opposed to directly behind.

In the old days, #1s (me included, didn‘t use protection, so we would‘nt miss orders. Just before you fired you covered up. However you would sometimes miss one, or the gun beside you would get you.

And on salutes, no protection at all for anyone. I tell you on those cold crisp days, everyone of those 21 rds hurt. (right Gunner).

 

[Gunner]

Salutes were the worst. I specifically remember one Remembrance Day Salute in Winnipeg. It was brutally cold (as only Manitoba can be!) and we didn‘t have ear plugs. I swear to God a tear ran down my face each and every time a round went off. I also remember the token enforcement of the wearing of ear defenders in the field. So far, my hearing remains OK. Every so often my wife tells me I‘m not listening and I pay the price.

Regards...

 

[Gunner]

Hearing Loss

Geez, just after posting my comments above, I noticed this article. I hope it‘s not an omen.

 

[Harry]

I will always remember being measured for Smurf Dinks in Battle school and the writ of death for not wearing them and ear defenders on the gun line.

Only to have the instructors call us weak and give us **** for not hearing orders.

Same BS WRT to jumping off the Deuce and bringing the gun into action. No jumping, yet, in the field, the tail gate was never allowed to be dropped. And god forbid you ever went to the medics with wrecked knees or pumpkin injuries.

You only had to do a couple laps of the gun line with that spike over your head before you chose the word of an instructor over the safety briefing of the medics.

Eh‘.

 

[larry Strong]

Well between Drilling rigs and the Arty, I am as deaf as a post :-[

 

[Arty_4]

Interesting article there on hearing loss..... does that mean that us as gunners will get regular hearing tests due to our trade? or should hearing tests be conducted after each live fire ex be it arty, inf, eng, or whatever? just a weekend on the range can have perm damage if you were dumb enough as to not put in your earplugs. We are susceptible to hearing damage in so many tasks we do in the forces that we as soldiers really need to be more aware and dutiful to our own hearing as well as those around us who may not be aware of the possibility of hearing damage, be it a new pte or a 20 yr veteran. As far as the earmuff debate goes....... my short time in the M-109, I don't recall if i wore my muffs inside the cab or not, but i do remember getting caught outside at the rear corner of the gun when it was fired and my ears were ringing for a while lol. Personally i like the old gun defenders ( I believe thats what there called) as they allow me to hear normal conversation but close when firing is going on. these are the in the ear plugs that have a piece of metal inside that closes when needed.
I am of the type that if I don't hear an order clearly i will not execute it when it comes to firing weapons and i have found that when on the riffle range the little foamy earplugs just make hearing the order to hard. And working at the #2 position i have had to tell my #1 to yell an order because I can't hear him through the earmuffs ( which tended to p*** him off because we ended up being late firing), but I'd rather be safe then sorry and charged lol .....

just my 2 or more cents lol 

 

[Bomber]

Blanks have gotten much quieter over the years.  The ones we use now barely set of a car alarm or two on Parliament hill, all the diplomat drivers park their shiny wheels behind the East block/senate area, and then set their alarms.  It used to sound like all hell had broken loose, but it now is like the parking lot at Walmart, one alarm and no one's looking.  People keep explaining it as American Blank reduced is not as loud as the Canadian made stuff.  I just notice that the rounds with the two groves on the base are louder.

 

[Old Sweat]

There are two points I would like to make. First, the matter is taken much more seriously now than it was in the so-called good old days. I had a classmate on Phase 3 OCP in Shilo who was berated by the CIG for ducking and turning away from the muzzle blast when he was a number 3 on a 105 C1 during live firing. It was considered a badge of honour to be hard of hearing and something one accepted like a man.

Hearing loss is not restricted to gunners. I once sat beside a medic LCol from the Surgeon General's staff on a service flight and we discussed hearing loss at length. According to him, the infantry had the highest incidence, followed by the artillery, armour and cooks. When he said that, I began to laugh and told him I knew why, but please expand on the reason for the hearing loss in the cook trade. He replied that this had baffled the medical community until someone noticed that the members of that trade with hearing loss were remusters from the combat arms. "Exactly," I said, and we talked a bit about the lack of effective remedial measures. He also said that the threat to deny members a medical pension for service-induced hearing loss was a hollow threat as the forces were unable to provide protection to those exposed to excessive "noise."

 

[Sher H]

After fourteen years, three tours and a lot of noise, I was released from the CAF due to not being able to pass my H2 level test. No chance of remustering to a different trade, the MO that signed my release warrant was an A**hole and he didn't want to listen to my please for a "softer" trade. I lost out on a fantastic career, but the worse was yet to come. After my release from the Reg force I was unable to join the reserves or even the cadets as a CI officer to continue in the life I loved. Now it's pure hatred for those that stuck it to me with nothing I could do. I took my case to the top and at every level, without success. QR&O's won out. If I could go back and tell others to wear hearing protection, I would.

 

[George Wallace]

After fourteen years, three tours and a lot of noise, I was released from the CAF due to not being able to pass my H2 level test. No chance of remustering to a different trade, the MO that signed my release warrant was an A**hole and he didn't want to listen to my please for a "softer" trade. I lost out on a fantastic career, but the worse was yet to come. After my release from the Reg force I was unable to join the reserves or even the cadets as a CI officer to continue in the life I loved. Now it's pure hatred for those that stuck it to me with nothing I could do. I took my case to the top and at every level, without success. QR&O's won out. If I could go back and tell others to wear hearing protection, I would.

Your post caught my eye.  Did you get any Pension from DVA?  I ask, as when I had my Hearing drop on a Medical I applied to DVA for a Pension and they told me that they use a different 'scale' to measure Hearing Loss, than what DND uses, and I did not qualify.

GW

 

[Lance Wiebe]

Same as me, George.

I joined as an H1, got released as an H3. 

No pension for me either.

It's mostly just my left ear though.  I was a commander most of my career, so the left ear took the brunt of the noise......

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

My hearing is fine when there is a single source, but when trying to discern conversation from background noise, forget it, lots of time I will just look and nod......and then hope that I should have been nodding.
...and the worst is I spent most of my time in the CP, wonder if there was a "box-echo effect"?
Glad to see its taken more serious now.

 

[larry Strong]

Or trying to keep that "interested look" on your face, when in reality you don't have a clue what was said, and are tired of saying "what was that?"

 

[Lance Wiebe]

Yeah, Bruce, I can relate.

Malls are the worst.  All I hear is noise.  Don't even bother trying to talk to me.

But I think the one thing that bugs me the most is the constant ringing in my ears.  It does get annoying.

 

[George Wallace]

It's mostly just my left ear though.   I was a commander most of my career, so the left ear took the brunt of the noise......

Same here.   That is the ear that I always left the Headset on, while using the other for 'observation'.   It seems to have taken all the brunt of the Comms Nets.   I wonder what the stats are for CC Hearing Loss?  

Next question, if they conducted that survey on Hearing Loss and found that our Trades were so prone to loss of hearing, why then do they deny us the benefits we apply?   It is documented in our medical docs, yet they treat us as if it is coming out of their personal pockets.   How many times have we had to deal with Clerks in the Forces like that, and now we have to deal with DVA Civies doing the same to us.

Same as Back Problems from all those years screeming around cross country in Tracks.   Lower Discs are compacted, fuzed, etc.   Surveys have been done to document this problem, yet they make you come back several times to try and claim any Pension.   They seem to control all the purse strings as if it is coming out of their Beer Money for their Friday Happy Hours in downtown Charlottetown..... :

Seems that if you have a legitimate complaint, you have to spend years fighting to get your rights acknowledged by someone who has never been out of an airconditioned office and figures they are entitled to their pay without service to the Vets and serving members who actually get injured in the performance of their jobs defending the country.  DVA should be hiring Ex-Service people to do the work.  They would have a better idea of what the Claimants are going through; more so than some Civie.  Same goes for the DVA Doctors; again specialists who have had some Military experience with which to better understand the injuries incured in the line of duty.

 

[George Wallace]

Or trying to keep that "interested look" on your face, when in reality you don't have a clue what was said, and are tired of saying "what was that?"

Even worse when you are married......"and it is not Selective Hearing, Dear!"

 

[larry Strong]

Even worse when you are married......"and it is not Selective Hearing, Dear!"

LOL, you mean to say, it isn't selective :