Go beyond your local experience...

[King Arthur]

Hi everyone,  I have just spent 2 hours reading through very interesting comments posted here, but also through some that need to be addressed.  This is why I joined this forum.  I used to be a member of CadetWorld and stopped because too many people were more interested in getting into arguments rather than looking at the facts.  I simply grew tired of immature members and their rantings about the good old times... So far, this forum gives me hope! ;D

Let me introduce myself. This year, I celebrate 30 years with the Cadet Organisations, including 22 as a CIC.  I just finished my second term as a CO, this first with Air Cadets and the latest with Army Cadets.

The two  topics that get me the most fired-up are about the weakness of the Army Cadet Program and the comments about the CIC.

To me, the CIC is one of the most efficient and most imaginative Branch of the CF.  No we are not trained to the same level than the RegF and it is OK this way, we have an expertise that is unique.  Instead of looking at the CIC as the weakest branch of the CF, I would ask people to look at us as the most dynamic and most professional Youth Leader Branch in the World.  My colleagues of the RegF and the ResF should take pride in having us acclaimed throughout the country as we provide a service that is unique.  OK, not all CIC members possess the same level of professionalism, but the same can certainly be said of the rest of the CF.  I am extremely proud of my uniform and my badge becasue I know that what I, and all my colleagues, do impacts directly and foreer on the lives of thousands of youth and their communities

Many of the comments I read about the CIC are ill-informed and cast a shadow on a group because of the acts of a few. The fact that you might have had a bad experience with a CIC should not allow you to pass judgement on the rest of us. I am from Quebec and the same applies to people outside Quebec making general statements about the entire population of Quebec when they pass judgements about the separatists. 

As for the Army Cadet Program and the fact that it is not enough Army, or that it used ot be more Army oriented...  I suggest that people stop living in the past because it prevents you from enjoying what is there just before your eyes.  The Army cadet LHQ program is but a small portion of what constitutes the Cadet Experience.  People should not focus on what they can not do, but rather be looking at the program for the enormous potential it offers.  I took a corps back in 1999 and left it with 130 cadets 2 months ago despite using the same program that so many people claim to be so boring...  It is not the program that makes it interesting, programs are just words on paper.  It is how you  implement the program that makes a difference. 

The difference between a very good corps and less efficient lies in the imagination of its staff and its willingness to push the envelope.  You know, I have been teaching leadership for 20 years now and the one statement that can define a good leader is that LEADERSHIP is not delegated, it must be taken.  The difference between a good Corps CO and another one is the desire to LEAD and make a difference. The CCo is full of imaginative and extraordinary CO and CIC.  Their willingness to take the programs and make it fun for the cadets is what setes them apart. The Army Cadet Program is only as good as the implementation that is put inplace LOCALLY by the LHQ staff. This is why you have corps that keep struggling and other that are striving. Instead of blaming the changes in the programs I would suggest that youo look at this from another angle.  The mandatory program only represents a portion of what can be taught locally, the rest is left to the LHQ staff to decide. The fact that patrolling is no longer in the mandated program does not prevent the local corps from adding it as a locally directed topic. 

Sorry for this long message, I will be back occasionally when I have 15 minutes.  In the mean time, I wish you all a joyful and sunny summer.

 

[catalyst]

Well put!

 

[chalk1]

I must say I agree with some of this, however there are other perspectives that aren't being explored here.

I will agree that there is excellent training available, and that those who complain about the type of training have not yet taken on the task of challenging themselves to advanced training/exhanges. As well, LHQ training can be fun and exciting in a safe environment without having to bleed substantial moolah - as you've said, just use some imagination.

I will also agree that there are some excellent CIC officers out there, and that the "lesser quality" members give the rest a negative reputation. This can also be said about the Reg force, however the incidents of incompetence in the CIC are far greater then those of the Regs. This is not based merely on regional experience, as I have trained three times at a national level and each time something has occurred to diminish my view of the cadet organisation. I have always been a proud, loyal member of the Royal Canadian Army Cadets. My first two years were spent in Air cadets, and I always remembered a speech given to me by my camp CO in 2000. In this speech, he asked each of us what we thought was the most important quality of a leader. After we each gave our response, he said that he believed that integrity was the most important, saying that integrity is "doing the right thing, even when no one is looking." I stay true to this, however recent events as a staff cadet show me that this obviously does not apply to senior members of the CIC who are completely detached from the troops. This is my last summer as a cadet; I have until December before aging out and joining the Reg force. Prior to this incident, I had considered joining the CIC after I age out and becoming another one of what I thought were virtuous leaders. After this summer's incident, I am completely disgusted at the CCM and the ability to misuse the CHAP program for political/competitive reasons.

I apologise for using this forum to complain, as there are a few solid officers in the CIC. I merely wished to express my current state of absolute disgust for the program.

 

[catalyst]

Just out of curiosity, what happened?

 

[Infanteer]

King Arthur,

I would challenge your opinions on the role of the CIC within the Canadian Forces.  I would state the opposite; their inclusion within the Officer Corps detracts from the level of professionalism of the Military Officer.  The military officer is first and foremost a member of his profession, a unique body within his country that possesses highly specialized characteristics.  As Huntington identified, the Military Officer's professional body is defined by its unique expertise, its responsibility, and its "organic unity and consciousness of themselves as a group apart...."  All the customs our military possesses such as the salute, the deference of higher rank, and total authority of command are built around the existence of this professionalism; for some reason the CIC has had these aspects grafted over their organization.  When one walks into a hospital, one can immediately determine the doctor as unique, part of his professional body.  When one sees a military officer, one shouldn't have to try and discern whether he is a true professional or a dressed up bureaucrat or a youth group leader.

The professional Officer is one dedicated to the "direction, operation, and control of violence on behalf of the state."  I don't see this in the job description of the CIC.

Don't get me wrong, this shouldn't be a slight on the duties a member of the CIC performs.  I feel you and your fellow leaders perform a very valuable role within today's society.  I'd rather see CIC's leading their cadets in programs that promote confidence, civic responsibility, and the ability to work together then having these kids spending all day in front of a TV or out getting into trouble.  There is a place for the group of well-intentioned civilians such as the CIC; out of interest, those of the Military profession may choose to be part of this group in their offtime.  However, to associate the CIC and the Cadets with an the military and those who lead it is a distraction at best.

Other then that, welcome aboard King Arthur.  Hope you stick around to help out on the Cadet Forum.

Cheers,
Infanteer

 

[elscotto937]

I would say that the CIC officer's profession is as a youth leader. I can agree with that, and I think that their time should be specifically dedicated to leading youth and developling themselves as youth leaders. For there is a tremendous requirement for the cadet organization in Canada, and for there most part the CIC lead this organization well. Where the CIC stray way from professional development is as military officers. And that is where the system has dropped the ball. CIC officers, labeled as commissioned military officers, with less training than a recruit in the first 3 weeks at basic, and with a pat on the back, he's out the door to some small community no with possibly other military presence, to make the first military impression our young people will ever see. Now I ask you is that officer a professional commissioned officer, I don't believe so. The training that the military gives the CIC does not provide them with enough of the building blocks to become a professional officer, and gives them minimum, if any supervision to develop as such. For instance, take most reserve units in Canada, the are dispersed throughout Canada, much the same as the Cadet units, but with the reserve units the officers that return from much more indepth training have a maximum of supervision in order to ensure that they develop a professional military officers. Senior officer, RSS staff and Snr NCOs are all thier to develop this officer.... The CIC have none of this, if they are lucky they will have a CO of King Arthur's experience to mentor them, but most do not, irregardless, the do not have the military training to build upon. Take the CIC out off the CF, and the small amount of time that was meant for military training can be rededicated to youth leadership skills.

Scott

 

[Franko]

Good points King Arthur.....

The sad fact is that there are a few bad apples in the CIC that detract from the remaining professionals in the cadet world. The main point I think is that there is a HUGE diference between the Regular or Reserve Officer training as compared to what CIC candidates have to go through in order to recieve their commision and promotion.

Again...a comparison of apples to oranges.

The CIC, in my humble opinion, is a great organisation....doing what it can with what little it is given.

"The difference between a very good corps and less efficient lies in the imagination of its staff and its willingness to push the envelope."

Agreed....however, some like to take the easy way out, and the cadets suffer for it. I'd love to see more CIC staff take the reins and run their corps to promote Esprite de Corps and get some fresh blood in....

Unfortunatly there are too many "bad apples" ruining it for the kids.

Regards

 

[Excolis]

hold on a sec scott.  you must be basing this on bad examples from where you are from.  i do agree that there are some officers in the cic that are there because they have to be or because htere kid is a cadet.  those people for the most part (not all of them) take no pride in themselves or the uniform.  as for the CIC having no other roles in the military community, that is not true at all. in Windsor  our Military institute has 4 member on the executive committee, the presidednt, treasure, and two directors.  the Internationarmed forces Commitee has 5 members of the cic the executive.  i am a member on both committees, and i have been lucky to have senior officers look at us the same way they would look at any other commissioned offcer.  i myself along with a few other cic officers, go to dinners in the states for the USMC, ANG, ect.  you need to look at these officers and see them as professional officers.  if there is some officer out there that looks like a bag of hammers, and is not meeting the highest of standards, you should tell one of your officers, and have them go and nicely say to the Officer, that they should do something to make themselves look better infront of there troops...  most of the time it is lack of knowledge on the officers behalf  and they will change how they look.  they just need a little help.  thats just my insight.  everyone can change how they do things.. they just need to be pointed in the right direction

 

[elscotto937]

Hopefully Airborne soon,
                    Granted I'm baseing my opinions on only two regions, Atlantic and Ontario, and only 2 of the elements Air and Army. That being said I have no first hand knowledge of a Navy CIC Officer outwest. I'm not personnally attacking the CIC officers individually, most of them do the best with what they are given, like Franko said. Thier intensions are good, but in order to wear the uniform of the Canadian Forces and hold a commision they require more training. This training most come at some expense, what is going to break, the time spent with the cadets or thier training as youth leaders.
  And only because you mention it, are you going to the dinners in the states are members of the CIC or your Military Institute. Because what would CIC officers have in common with warfighters, unless these people you were meeting with were leaders of some USMC cadet leaders.  Your inclusion in the military institute was based on your military experience, or could a civilian join.
And you do mention bringing up the problem to the individual and helping them sort themselves out and this has been tried, but as I said often there is no one around to sort them out in the public's eye. The problem is that most of the CIC officers that required sorting out, believe that they are real officers, and in the end do nothing to correct themselves.

 

[Infanteer]

Regardless of the quality of a majority of CIC officers (which seems to be constantly argued upon), it is irrelevant to the nature of the CIC organization belonging to the Officer Corps of a Military Force.  A CIC does not train and work to achieve professional excellence in the direction, control and management of violence on behalf of the state; therefore their inclusion within the ranks of a professional institution is unwarranted.

 

[Bean]

Good day all;

I've seen this topic far too often in the past, and am afraid I'll continue to see it much into the future as well.  I must take exception to the fact that there are several opinoons expressed here in the vien that CIC officers are not real officers.  If we look into the purist definition, I can concede that CIC officers are non-combatants, and therefore are not to be regarded as equal in all skills required of military leadership, however nor are most of our medical personnel, administrative personnel, or many among other support trades.  Having returned to the CIC (I've been in the Pres and CIC, and even done time at NDHQ) I can atest to the professionalism of many of my cadet colleagues.  Perhaps we are the exception to the rule at this point, and perhaps there are changes needed but here is the normal profile of a CIC officer as I have had privledge to see it.

Many of the officers currently enroled (age 35 and younger) have completed or are completing their university education, along with some additional Professional Military education.  Myself, I have just completed my degree from RMC and most of the other officers at the unit I will be working in are either enrolled in or have complete the OPME program as well.  Each member brings with them countless real world experiences, while these may not all be in the form of tactical expertise, professionalism in any craft which may serve the national good is uselful within a military reserve.  Many bring with them prior military experience, in fact of my last CIC course 21 out of 30 of us came fit with more that 5 - 10 years of Pres or Reg Force experience.

Collectively, yes the CIC can be tagged as alot of things.  There were in years gone by rampant rapid promotions of LHQ officers or fast tracking of specialized staff to address retention issues.  This is not as often the case anymore.  Like most trades in the CF MOC qualification takes quite a bit of time, training and experience.  If the unit makes their officers follow the rules, it will take a CIC 5 years to complete MOC qulaification (i.e. promotion to Captain), and until this time they are still in training like any other CF officer.  CIC officers must train to perform, and gain experience in EVERY facet of the CCM in order to reach this stage effectively.  Granted, this is not consistently applied, but it is getting better.

There is a full movement of younger CIC officers who expect to meet the same standards as their PRes and Reg Force bretheren.  While we are not firmly held to those same standards, and not fully assessed on them, this is a flaw in the general programme administration.  A problem that hopefully the on-going occupational review will address.  As we are seeing the legacy staff with more than 20+ years in the CIC exit the organization, this younger breed will gain prominence, and is making a better effort to fit into the changing military ethos in Canada.  It may soon be time for the CIC to play a larger role, and perhaps this is the catalyst group to make that happen.

Let us not berate a community who strives to improve the future state of our military and our country by training its youth, with the disdain of the past.  Let us support this community and help it find its place within the broader CF.  With peace support missions on-going, it may soon be time to see CIC officers in the communities of far off lands instilling in youth of other countries the same attributes we instill in our own.  A wild idea, but it may be one whose time has come.

So I guess that beyond postulating about other potential roles I'll leave with a thought.  In most reserve units between 60 and 75% of the time spent by officers at the LHQ is in training and not applying the trade for which they were hired.  The CIC applies the trade they have been hired to perform everytime they put on the uniform and step into the community.  In my experience, you can ask a CIC officer to teach almost anything, and given time to familiarize on it, they will do an outstanding job.  The CIC officers primary function in most cases is to conduct training, of any type, in multple venues.  This too may be a better place for them to fit in the broader CF, and better utilize our combatant resources to complete that work.

We all know that the CIC are not warfighters, but they are professionals with the skills to perform a difficult job, in often less than ideal circumstances.  And if that's not making a contribution to the CF, then I've missed the point during my 13 years as a member of the CF.

I look forward to responses.

 

[Bean]

Since my first post I've received a few e-mails directly with varying positions.  The majority of response focus on the issue of CIC officers not receiving tactical or combat arm based training. Can't argue that, its not there, but the trade does not at this time require it.  However, the other issue is that the CIC are not able to attend the same training, even if they so desire it.  I  would love to be able to send new officer cadets to the same training as the remainder of the CF, where I am sure they would no worse than any other member, but it is not at this time possible.  If attending a specific course makes one a real officer, and not their professional appearance, performance of their duties, and measured skill in their trade, then I agree the CIC are not professionals, but I don't believe this to be the case.

 

[elscotto937]

Bean, agreed that CIC officers provide a service and are a major contributor to the youth of Canada. The only contribution to the CF that they would make for be as indirect recruiters. Any no one would argue that MOs and JAGs are warfighters, but their services directly support warfighting, Peace Support Ops and training for such endevours. And as far as looking like a soldier, if that's all it took then, Clint Eastwood was a great Marine, because he looked and acted like one in Heart Break Ridge.

 

[Excolis]

Scott,

    the last time i read my scroll it read the same as any "real" officer as you see it.  my involvment in the Military Institute and the Internation armed forces committe are both because of my CIC experience.  i am there as an officer.  and all the war fighters you call it see me the same as they would see any other commissioned officer.  and yes i have gone to the states and met many people/officers in the marine corps, ANG ect.....    it really strikes a nerve  when all cic get bashed and looked down on because people think they are less deserving of a commission.  i have known many officers in the res that are worse than mmost cic officers...  you dont see us looking down on them...

 

[elscotto937]

Good or Bad, Reservists have at least been given training that will take them to a standard, they have the building blocks to develop under guidence. The CIC have not being given this training nor are the required to meet a standard, for progression through the ranks. If you were to combine all the training that would take you to Captain and expand upon it, and require that all CIC officers successfully pass this training before they can get commission then, because they do not need a commission to supervise Cadets. That would provide the CIC with a modicum of credibility.

Or...

You could say that the CIC only exist so that Reservist Loggies have someone to bash, ok I'm kidding about that...

 

[Excolis]

lol, you are lucky i have a thick skin lol....  nono  i think that cic are to res as res are to reg.  we do have a standard to meet, and it is very unfortunate that not more meet that standard.  there are some cc out there that could stand next to reg force officers and the troops wouldn't know the difference.  it is all about presence. 

 

[elscotto937]

Hopefully Airborne Soon,
Put you pride on the back shelf for a second and tell me what you think of having CIC officers complete all the crse to take them to Capt, before they can get a commission (ignore the pay issue for right now). Because for the most part CIC officer training would take them about 3 or 4 years to complete, if they really worked at it (i.e. Had the time). And the Majority of the CIC are it it for about 7-8 years (based on my personal experience) which would make it benificial for them to wait for promotion.  Being held at OCdt would not restrict them from conducted supervision of cadets and duties within the corps/sqn. That way it would deflect any of the pers who join the CIC to be an officer the quick and easy way..Acting as sort of a filter...An a greater percentage of those who join would not be pers who could not get into the Regular or PRes, but rather those who which to do a community service, which creates more of a professional force.
Sorry, if I was a little harsh earlier, I was remembering a few run-ins with some CIC/CIL officers that were less than perfect, surprisingly my ratio of good to bad CIC officers that I have met is roughly 1 to 1.

 

[Excolis]

no problem, i hve a tough skin, and i do agree that the training could be a little different...  i will not fight you there.  and by doing what you say, it will stop some of the power trip 23 year old capt's.... for all the CIC out there do not get me wrong i stand proud behind the capbadge  that we wear.  scott you have some valid points,oh and again dont worry about being harsh, if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen right. 

cheers

 

[elscotto937]

I was once a CIL Officer, and I believe I was well on my way to becoming one of those power-tripping 23 year old Capts, but I stopped short and joined the Regular force instead. And realistically, I prefer to bash army reservists, because most of them wear skirts and have funny hats.. And the saying that I have when someone talks about what they experienced with the reserves (mostly bad)...Is the rule that if you are a professional in you civilian life, then you are more than likely act to be a professional soldier. Maybe the same could be said about the CIC. It's not really going to change, and we can complain about the training all we like but the truth is there are quite a few idiots out there, and although they maybe evenly distributed in all elements, the seem to thive and fester in the CIC. In your unit is the regular force LO active, or do they have a PRes Unit Rep doing the job?

 

[Excolis]

LO????    in our area we have no reg force community it is all reserve.  we train and work with our affiliated unit as much as possible to gain knowledge from them.  i am lucky to work wiith a corps that has smart officers, that portray a good example of oficers.  our unit is known for that.  but i have seen first hand from my courses i have been on, what there is out there. and i think the standard should be raised.... where are you stationed scott?


brad