General Vance - Inappropriate conduct?

[NavyShooter]

Interesting snippet in the news tonight.

Former top soldier Gen. Jonathan Vance facing allegations of inappropriate behaviour with female subordinates: sources - National | Globalnews.ca

Former chief of defence staff Gen. Jonathan Vance announced his plans to resign last summer after the PMO did not recommend him for a top military post with NATO.

globalnews.ca

"Former chief of defence staff Gen. Jonathan Vance is facing allegations of inappropriate behaviour with two female subordinates, including one regarding an alleged relationship with a woman he significantly outranked.

A source with direct knowledge of the relationship came forward to Global News alleging a relationship with sexually explicit exchanges and repeated private meetings. Global News has viewed evidence that appears to support this, dating from 2019 to as recently as January 2021.

The evidence reviewed also suggests the two met on at least three occasions outside of work

Global News reached out to the female subordinate alleged to have had a relationship with Vance while he was chief of defence staff. She said the allegations are true but asked to remain anonymous."

 

[Jarnhamar]

Does inappropriate behavior with subordinates fall under sexual misconduct?

 

[MilEME09]

Does inappropriate behavior with subordinates fall under sexual misconduct?

Devil will be in the details

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Vance responded to questions about the alleged relationship in two separate phone calls with Global News. In his first response, Vance suggested he only knew the woman in a professional context, and denied having any direct communication with her.

He suggested any sexually explicit exchanges could be fabricated.

He subsequently acknowledged that they had dated in Gagetown, N.B., where they were both posted in 2001, while they were in separate chains of command. He said the relationship with her evolved over the years, describing them as “colleagues and friends.”

Roughly two hours later, Vance called Global News a second time. He acknowledged he had been “holding back” in his initial response, saying he had done so because he didn’t want to “betray confidences.”

Oh, I thought answering a question wrongly was called "lying".

Sources also allege to Global News that Vance made a sexual comment toward a second, much younger junior soldier prior to becoming chief of defence, which a source described as unwanted.

That comment, contained in documents obtained by Global News, appeared to have been sent from Vance’s military email account to a female corporal in 2012, when Vance was a major general and leading the Strategic Joint Staff.

The female corporal had reached out to Vance for career advice. A response sent from Vance’s email account raises the prospect of going to a clothing optional vacation destination with her. Vance says that he has no recollection of the exchange and suggested that if it did occur, he would have intended it as a joke rather than a solicitation.

Seriously?

 

[MilEME09]

Seriously?

Pretty sure calling something like that a joke is an exact example they use as something not okay by operation honor. So much for Vance being a "champion" of it. Do as I say, not as I do, hope they kept the emails

 

[Weinie]

Oh, I thought answering a question wrongly was called "lying".



Seriously?

Just a matter of time before this hit the street.

 

[Good2Golf]

Pretty sure calling something like that a joke is an exact example they use as something not okay by operation honor. So much for Vance being a "champion" of it. Do as I say, not as I do, hope they kept the emails

perhaps the Cpl “experienced it differently” than Vance?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Wow. I suspect if someone were to look through all the emails I had ever sent there are probably some pretty offside comments to friends, but c'mon, a Major General making that kind of "joke" to a Cpl asking for career advice? Greasy.

Also that and dating a subordinate is exactly the kind of thing he was happy to run others through the wringer for under Op Honour.... just wow.

 

[YZT580]

Wonder what Norman is thinking?

 

[MilEME09]

Wonder what Norman is thinking?

"Karma"

 

[Jarnhamar]

Wow. I suspect if someone were to look through all the emails I had ever sent there are probably some pretty offside comments to friends, but c'mon, a Major General making that kind of "joke" to a Cpl asking for career advice? Greasy.

Also that and dating a subordinate is exactly the kind of thing he was happy to run others through the wringer for under Op Honour.... just wow.

True.
But a corporal emailing a major general for career advice raises some other questions as well.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The general should know better than to have reciprocated that conversation. And most certainly not in the accused manner.

Who was that general in Afg who was caught with his clerk ?

 

[PuckChaser]

True.
But a corporal emailing a major general for career advice raises some other questions as well.

For her to feel that sending that email was appropriate means one of 2 things in my mind:

1. Vance had inappropriate personal conversations with her to groom her so she felt that it was appropriate for her to do that. Which would be a disgusting predatory act. Or;
2. He as the COS ran an HQ that lacked any sort of military bearing or discipline, and instead of correcting her via her Chain of Command he took the opportunity to sexual harass her.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

But a corporal emailing a major general for career advice raises some other questions as well.

It does...but none that point a finger more harshly at a junior rank than should be pointed at the senior rank...or so I've been taught by trusted superiors/mentors over the years.

The bigger the separation in rank, the more "pointed" the finger at the superior should be, IMO. To quote a phrase I've thought suited more than one situation..."knew, or reasonably ought to have known".

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Who was that general in Afg who was caught with his clerk ?

BGen Ménard

 

[dapaterson]

Demoted to Colonel (post retirement) and fined $7000.

Ménard J.B.D. (Brigadier-General), R. v. - Chief Military Judge

Get quick, easy access to all Government of Canada services and information.

decisia.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca

 

[Ping Monkey]

VAdm Norman be like...

 

[Navy_Pete]

True.
But a corporal emailing a major general for career advice raises some other questions as well.

Yeah, it's a weird situation for sure. Do generals have the equivalent to a steward? (Which is also generally a bit of a weird thing as well when the Cmdre or someone comes on board with what seems like the duplicate for all of CJOC staff and a steward, not sure if that's even still a thing).

 

[PPCLI Guy]

As far as I know, Army Generals do NOT / NOT get a steward.

 

[Kilted]

I'm not sure if I missed something, but other then being of a different rank, I didn't see anything that was inappropriate with the female officer, especially the relationship was private. To my knowledge there are no specific regulations prohibiting people of different ranks being in relationships. It's probably a bad idea, but then again any relationship between people who work together isn't always the best idea. I remember a time when relationshps within the military were very frowned on. I supposed, party due to Op Honour, there is less resistance to them, at least at the peer level.