Gen Dellaire

[army]

Posted by "dave" <davidwillard@home.com> on Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:29:13 -0400
Re: Gordon Dundas on Gen Dellaire,
I too feel much sympathy for this man. I must admit however I do have mixed
feelings about what has been reported visa vie his actions on the ground. I
know one has to take media reports with a "grain of salt" but, regardless of
what the UN orders may have been, doesn‘t the prevailing circumstances
overide essentially what must be viewed as policy rather that standing
orders. If as a leader and main decision maker you are confronted with what
must have been a horrendous circumstance that could not wait for higher
authority, are you going to act or are you going to wait for the
machinations of UN HQ? Since he was aware of the potential why were the
heavy support weapons not taken out of storage? The Belgians seemed to have
had a handle on what was needed in bringing those weapons with them, why
were they locked up? Well we know why, the UN did not want to portray an
intimidating impression. Doesn‘t that all go out the window when the balloon
goes up? I feel sorry for this officer but I feel even sorrier for the
parents of those Belgian Paratroopers who were hacked up and murdered.
Dave
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[army]

Posted by "Robert Childs" <adanac1@home.com> on Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:54:32 -0400
if this is what it did to a Gen what the **** did it do to the men and women
of lower ranks.
Or is only the Gen that gets all the media. attention. If it had been
anyone else the matter would have just been their imagination.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave"
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:29 PM
Subject: Gen Dellaire
> Re: Gordon Dundas on Gen Dellaire,
>
> I too feel much sympathy for this man. I must admit however I do have
mixed
> feelings about what has been reported visa vie his actions on the ground.
I
> know one has to take media reports with a "grain of salt" but, regardless
of
> what the UN orders may have been, doesn‘t the prevailing circumstances
> overide essentially what must be viewed as policy rather that standing
> orders. If as a leader and main decision maker you are confronted with
what
> must have been a horrendous circumstance that could not wait for higher
> authority, are you going to act or are you going to wait for the
> machinations of UN HQ? Since he was aware of the potential why were the
> heavy support weapons not taken out of storage? The Belgians seemed to
have
> had a handle on what was needed in bringing those weapons with them, why
> were they locked up? Well we know why, the UN did not want to portray an
> intimidating impression. Doesn‘t that all go out the window when the
balloon
> goes up? I feel sorry for this officer but I feel even sorrier for the
> parents of those Belgian Paratroopers who were hacked up and murdered.
>
> Dave
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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[army]

Posted by Gunner <randr1@home.com> on Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:44:53 -0600
Gen Dallaire always seemed to be a fine gentlemen and an outstanding
officer on the couple of occasions I dealt with him.
I think what hurt him most was the media criticism of his actions.
Absolutely no support for him. Only now has the National Post begun to
defend his actions and place the blame on those behind the UN, that
being the Great Powers, for hampering his mission, his mandate, and his
authority. I‘m also not impressed with the Federal Government for
placing a muzzle on him, not allowing him to speak out.
Anyone read the Saturday Night article on him? Typical Canadian
sensationalistic left wing crap! This soldier bore the brunt of the
Federal Government‘s inaction and inability to defend its sons and
daughters because of some insidious political reason.
Stand Easy Gen Dallaire....rounds complete....end of mission.
Gordan Dundas wrote:
>
> Last night I watched the Brian Stewert of CBC interview Gen. Dallire
> and his wife. It was a very moving piece.And more then once I found
> myself assailed by various emotions ... Grief.anger,frustration.To put
> it mildly I was moved by this man and his incredible courage.
> Where do we find people such as this?
>
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[army]

Posted by Gunner <randr1@home.com> on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:21:30 -0600
PTSD affects all ranks Officer and NCM of the CF incl the army, navy
and airforce. LGen Dallaire was one of the prime movers to get the CF
to do something about PTSD and there are now clinics all across Canada
to help members deal with issues.
Shame on you for trying to make this an "Us vs them" issue. There is no
place for it in the CF.
Robert Childs wrote:
>
> if this is what it did to a Gen what the **** did it do to the men and women
> of lower ranks.
> Or is only the Gen that gets all the media. attention. If it had been
> anyone else the matter would have just been their imagination.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "dave"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:29 PM
> Subject: Gen Dellaire
>
> > Re: Gordon Dundas on Gen Dellaire,
> >
> > I too feel much sympathy for this man. I must admit however I do have
> mixed
> > feelings about what has been reported visa vie his actions on the ground.
> I
> > know one has to take media reports with a "grain of salt" but, regardless
> of
> > what the UN orders may have been, doesn‘t the prevailing circumstances
> > overide essentially what must be viewed as policy rather that standing
> > orders. If as a leader and main decision maker you are confronted with
> what
> > must have been a horrendous circumstance that could not wait for higher
> > authority, are you going to act or are you going to wait for the
> > machinations of UN HQ? Since he was aware of the potential why were the
> > heavy support weapons not taken out of storage? The Belgians seemed to
> have
> > had a handle on what was needed in bringing those weapons with them, why
> > were they locked up? Well we know why, the UN did not want to portray an
> > intimidating impression. Doesn‘t that all go out the window when the
> balloon
> > goes up? I feel sorry for this officer but I feel even sorrier for the
> > parents of those Belgian Paratroopers who were hacked up and murdered.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
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[army]

Posted by "michelle Bleasdale" <m_bleasdale@HOTMAIL.COM> on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:06:54 PDT
I‘m afraid you seem to have no idea how the Rwanda mission was structured
and what General Dallaire tried to do during the massacres. This is not a
"troops in the forward trenches, Generals in the rear Chateaus" kind of
scenario. This was a "Generals in the streets" effort. PTSD has impact on
all ranks. I think your comments are in bad taste. Michelle.
>From: "Robert Childs"
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To:
>Subject: Re: Gen Dellaire
>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:54:32 -0400
>
>if this is what it did to a Gen what the **** did it do to the men and
>women
>of lower ranks.
>Or is only the Gen that gets all the media. attention. If it had been
>anyone else the matter would have just been their imagination.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>
>From: "dave"
>To:
>Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:29 PM
>Subject: Gen Dellaire
>
>
> > Re: Gordon Dundas on Gen Dellaire,
> >
> > I too feel much sympathy for this man. I must admit however I do have
>mixed
> > feelings about what has been reported visa vie his actions on the
>ground.
>I
> > know one has to take media reports with a "grain of salt" but,
>regardless
>of
> > what the UN orders may have been, doesn‘t the prevailing circumstances
> > overide essentially what must be viewed as policy rather that standing
> > orders. If as a leader and main decision maker you are confronted with
>what
> > must have been a horrendous circumstance that could not wait for higher
> > authority, are you going to act or are you going to wait for the
> > machinations of UN HQ? Since he was aware of the potential why were the
> > heavy support weapons not taken out of storage? The Belgians seemed to
>have
> > had a handle on what was needed in bringing those weapons with them, why
> > were they locked up? Well we know why, the UN did not want to portray an
> > intimidating impression. Doesn‘t that all go out the window when the
>balloon
> > goes up? I feel sorry for this officer but I feel even sorrier for the
> > parents of those Belgian Paratroopers who were hacked up and murdered.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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[army]

Posted by "michelle Bleasdale" <m_bleasdale@HOTMAIL.COM> on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:19:36 PDT
Ackowledging the tragedy of the situation and the sadness felt by the
families of the Belgian paratroopers who were killed, I think we cannot
fault Gen Dallaire on his actions. The fact is, this was not a situation
where independent action should have overruled "policy" as you put it.
Gen Dallaire‘s force was far too small to accomplish anything within the
scale of massacre that was going on throughout the country. He had no
intelligence institution, no way of getting his troops around safely, no
knowledge of what was happening, where, no ability to protect his troops
should the mass of the marauding population turn on them as they did on the
Belgians and certainly no way of preventing further reprisals against other
UN or aid agency workers.
We could look at it the other way around. In a country where almost a
million are reported to have been slaughterd, General Dallaire lost only as
few as he did.
Armies are not rabbles, and the nations of the UN put the troops there under
a specific mandate, agreed to by the sovereign government of Rwanda. It was
not General Dallaire‘s call to take things into his own hands, contrary to
formal instructions from the UN Security Council, or against the wishes of
the host government. That all sounds pretty crappy, but professional
soldiers are required to obey higher guidance, no matter what they think of
it.
If General Dallaire did throw caution to the wind and order his troops to
start shooting Rwandans, I for one don‘t think he or any of his troops would
ever have come home.
Looked at in the long view of history, General Dallaire will be seen as the
one guy who tried to do the right thing, in impossible circumstances.
Michelle.
>From: "dave"
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To:
>Subject: Gen Dellaire
>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:29:13 -0400
>
>Re: Gordon Dundas on Gen Dellaire,
>
>I too feel much sympathy for this man. I must admit however I do have mixed
>feelings about what has been reported visa vie his actions on the ground. I
>know one has to take media reports with a "grain of salt" but, regardless
>of
>what the UN orders may have been, doesn‘t the prevailing circumstances
>overide essentially what must be viewed as policy rather that standing
>orders. If as a leader and main decision maker you are confronted with what
>must have been a horrendous circumstance that could not wait for higher
>authority, are you going to act or are you going to wait for the
>machinations of UN HQ? Since he was aware of the potential why were the
>heavy support weapons not taken out of storage? The Belgians seemed to have
>had a handle on what was needed in bringing those weapons with them, why
>were they locked up? Well we know why, the UN did not want to portray an
>intimidating impression. Doesn‘t that all go out the window when the
>balloon
>goes up? I feel sorry for this officer but I feel even sorrier for the
>parents of those Belgian Paratroopers who were hacked up and murdered.
>
>Dave
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
______________________________________________________
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[army]

Posted by Gordan Dundas <dundas@prairie.ca> on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:57:08 -0500
Ahhh Michelle....
could you be alittle more careful when cropping postings .You current posting
appears to makes it look like I wrote theoffending piece on Lt. Gen. Dallaire. I
am in fact in total agreement with you.
michelle Bleasdale wrote:
> Ackowledging the tragedy of the situation and the sadness felt by the
> families of the Belgian paratroopers who were killed, I think we cannot
> fault Gen Dallaire on his actions. The fact is, this was not a situation
> where independent action should have overruled "policy" as you put it.
>
> Gen Dallaire‘s force was far too small to accomplish anything within the
> scale of massacre that was going on throughout the country. He had no
> intelligence institution, no way of getting his troops around safely, no
> knowledge of what was happening, where, no ability to protect his troops
> should the mass of the marauding population turn on them as they did on the
> Belgians and certainly no way of preventing further reprisals against other
> UN or aid agency workers.
>
> We could look at it the other way around. In a country where almost a
> million are reported to have been slaughterd, General Dallaire lost only as
> few as he did.
>
> Armies are not rabbles, and the nations of the UN put the troops there under
> a specific mandate, agreed to by the sovereign government of Rwanda. It was
> not General Dallaire‘s call to take things into his own hands, contrary to
> formal instructions from the UN Security Council, or against the wishes of
> the host government. That all sounds pretty crappy, but professional
> soldiers are required to obey higher guidance, no matter what they think of
> it.
>
> If General Dallaire did throw caution to the wind and order his troops to
> start shooting Rwandans, I for one don‘t think he or any of his troops would
> ever have come home.
>
> Looked at in the long view of history, General Dallaire will be seen as the
> one guy who tried to do the right thing, in impossible circumstances.
> Michelle.
>
> >From: "dave"
> >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >To:
> >Subject: Gen Dellaire
> >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:29:13 -0400
> >
> >Re: Gordon Dundas on Gen Dellaire,
> >
> >I too feel much sympathy for this man. I must admit however I do have mixed
> >feelings about what has been reported visa vie his actions on the ground. I
> >know one has to take media reports with a "grain of salt" but, regardless
> >of
> >what the UN orders may have been, doesn‘t the prevailing circumstances
> >overide essentially what must be viewed as policy rather that standing
> >orders. If as a leader and main decision maker you are confronted with what
> >must have been a horrendous circumstance that could not wait for higher
> >authority, are you going to act or are you going to wait for the
> >machinations of UN HQ? Since he was aware of the potential why were the
> >heavy support weapons not taken out of storage? The Belgians seemed to have
> >had a handle on what was needed in bringing those weapons with them, why
> >were they locked up? Well we know why, the UN did not want to portray an
> >intimidating impression. Doesn‘t that all go out the window when the
> >balloon
> >goes up? I feel sorry for this officer but I feel even sorrier for the
> >parents of those Belgian Paratroopers who were hacked up and murdered.
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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[army]

Posted by Rhett <lawson@cclacbrome.qc.ca> on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:18:46 -0400
Michelle
Thanks for your comments concerning Dallaire, I for one agree with your
perspective and applaud Gen Dallaire for his being as stoic as this. We were
fortunate as Canadians to have had Romeo Dallaire as we were with McKenzie,
somehow I feel there are others in our Uniform either Regular or Militia that
could prove to be just as capable.
Rhett Lawson
michelle Bleasdale wrote:
> Ackowledging the tragedy of the situation and the sadness felt by the
> families of the Belgian paratroopers who were killed, I think we cannot
> fault Gen Dallaire on his actions. The fact is, this was not a situation
> where independent action should have overruled "policy" as you put it.
>
> Gen Dallaire‘s force was far too small to accomplish anything within the
> scale of massacre that was going on throughout the country. He had no
> intelligence institution, no way of getting his troops around safely, no
> knowledge of what was happening, where, no ability to protect his troops
> should the mass of the marauding population turn on them as they did on the
> Belgians and certainly no way of preventing further reprisals against other
> UN or aid agency workers.
>
> We could look at it the other way around. In a country where almost a
> million are reported to have been slaughterd, General Dallaire lost only as
> few as he did.
>
> Armies are not rabbles, and the nations of the UN put the troops there under
> a specific mandate, agreed to by the sovereign government of Rwanda. It was
> not General Dallaire‘s call to take things into his own hands, contrary to
> formal instructions from the UN Security Council, or against the wishes of
> the host government. That all sounds pretty crappy, but professional
> soldiers are required to obey higher guidance, no matter what they think of
> it.
>
> If General Dallaire did throw caution to the wind and order his troops to
> start shooting Rwandans, I for one don‘t think he or any of his troops would
> ever have come home.
>
> Looked at in the long view of history, General Dallaire will be seen as the
> one guy who tried to do the right thing, in impossible circumstances.
> Michelle.
>
> >From: "dave"
> >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >To:
> >Subject: Gen Dellaire
> >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:29:13 -0400
> >
> >Re: Gordon Dundas on Gen Dellaire,
> >
> >I too feel much sympathy for this man. I must admit however I do have mixed
> >feelings about what has been reported visa vie his actions on the ground. I
> >know one has to take media reports with a "grain of salt" but, regardless
> >of
> >what the UN orders may have been, doesn‘t the prevailing circumstances
> >overide essentially what must be viewed as policy rather that standing
> >orders. If as a leader and main decision maker you are confronted with what
> >must have been a horrendous circumstance that could not wait for higher
> >authority, are you going to act or are you going to wait for the
> >machinations of UN HQ? Since he was aware of the potential why were the
> >heavy support weapons not taken out of storage? The Belgians seemed to have
> >had a handle on what was needed in bringing those weapons with them, why
> >were they locked up? Well we know why, the UN did not want to portray an
> >intimidating impression. Doesn‘t that all go out the window when the
> >balloon
> >goes up? I feel sorry for this officer but I feel even sorrier for the
> >parents of those Belgian Paratroopers who were hacked up and murdered.
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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[army]

Posted by "dave" <davidwillard@home.com> on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 16:02:26 -0400
I appreciate your point of view on this sad story. You are absolutely right
when you talk about the various nations participating contingents and the
peacekeeping mandate underwhich they were serving. Gen Dellaire was really
on a shoestring with this force - no argument. He and the whole mission were
let down by many, including countries that were well aware of the situation
and the UN itself. Perhaps betrayal would not be too strong a word for what
transpired.
My question is, and is the question of many others when it became obvious
to Gen Dellaire that anarchy was imminent, as he said he knew it was, why
weren‘t steps taken to consolidate whatever defence was possible? At the
latter stages of these negative developments there were still small pockets
of isolated peacekeepers who would have had no chance whatsoever as history
has proven. Why were the heavier support weapons STILL in storage? When the
General became aware his troops were under duress being slaughtered why
did he carry on to Rwandan Army HQ? Why didn‘t he turn around and return to
his HQ, pull his troops together until UN HQ or one of the capable nations
hurried in reinforcements?
Michelle, one thing that made Canadians superlative at peacekeeping is, or
at least was, was our reputation in combat, our willingness to engage in
combat, and foremost our ability to switch at a moments notice from this
ready warrior mode into a diplomatic peaceloving one. Belligerents on both
sides of disputes hailed us because of our fairness, firmness and dogged
determination not to take any crap from anyone. Again, I don‘t know all the
details and perhaps what has been published has been slanted, I don‘t know
about all that. One thing I do know however, and this comes from 30 yrs and
4 UN postings is, there are circumstances that do warrant taking off the
blue beret and putting on battle skrim. It‘s called "Lets Survive." This
ultimate decision is not taken in New York, Ottawa or Washington...It‘s
taken by the Commander on the ground.
Dave Willard
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[army]

Posted by "Chrid Loveridge" <cloveridge@HOTMAIL.COM> on Sat, 15 Apr 2000 03:05:22 EDT
Had Gen. Dellaire, been allowed the staff, personal, effective ROEs‘, and
time to formulate OPs plan inc time for recce, this could have been
avoided. The blame was not intended on Gen. Dellaire this would be like
blaming Gen.s MacKenzie and RoseBrit Army, for the situation in Yugo,
but meant to lay the blame on the U.N. and its impotence.
>From: Gordan Dundas
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: Gen Dellaire
>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:57:08 -0500
>
>Ahhh Michelle....
> could you be alittle more careful when cropping postings .You current
>posting
>appears to makes it look like I wrote theoffending piece on Lt. Gen.
>Dallaire. I
>am in fact in total agreement with you.
>
>michelle Bleasdale wrote:
>
> > Ackowledging the tragedy of the situation and the sadness felt by the
> > families of the Belgian paratroopers who were killed, I think we cannot
> > fault Gen Dallaire on his actions. The fact is, this was not a situation
> > where independent action should have overruled "policy" as you put it.
> >
> > Gen Dallaire‘s force was far too small to accomplish anything within the
> > scale of massacre that was going on throughout the country. He had no
> > intelligence institution, no way of getting his troops around safely, no
> > knowledge of what was happening, where, no ability to protect his troops
> > should the mass of the marauding population turn on them as they did on
>the
> > Belgians and certainly no way of preventing further reprisals against
>other
> > UN or aid agency workers.
> >
> > We could look at it the other way around. In a country where almost a
> > million are reported to have been slaughterd, General Dallaire lost only
>as
> > few as he did.
> >
> > Armies are not rabbles, and the nations of the UN put the troops there
>under
> > a specific mandate, agreed to by the sovereign government of Rwanda. It
>was
> > not General Dallaire‘s call to take things into his own hands, contrary
>to
> > formal instructions from the UN Security Council, or against the wishes
>of
> > the host government. That all sounds pretty crappy, but professional
> > soldiers are required to obey higher guidance, no matter what they think
>of
> > it.
> >
> > If General Dallaire did throw caution to the wind and order his troops
>to
> > start shooting Rwandans, I for one don‘t think he or any of his troops
>would
> > ever have come home.
> >
> > Looked at in the long view of history, General Dallaire will be seen as
>the
> > one guy who tried to do the right thing, in impossible circumstances.
> > Michelle.
> >
> > >From: "dave"
> > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >To:
> > >Subject: Gen Dellaire
> > >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:29:13 -0400
> > >
> > >Re: Gordon Dundas on Gen Dellaire,
> > >
> > >I too feel much sympathy for this man. I must admit however I do have
>mixed
> > >feelings about what has been reported visa vie his actions on the
>ground. I
> > >know one has to take media reports with a "grain of salt" but,
>regardless
> > >of
> > >what the UN orders may have been, doesn‘t the prevailing circumstances
> > >overide essentially what must be viewed as policy rather that standing
> > >orders. If as a leader and main decision maker you are confronted with
>what
> > >must have been a horrendous circumstance that could not wait for higher
> > >authority, are you going to act or are you going to wait for the
> > >machinations of UN HQ? Since he was aware of the potential why were the
> > >heavy support weapons not taken out of storage? The Belgians seemed to
>have
> > >had a handle on what was needed in bringing those weapons with them,
>why
> > >were they locked up? Well we know why, the UN did not want to portray
>an
> > >intimidating impression. Doesn‘t that all go out the window when the
> > >balloon
> > >goes up? I feel sorry for this officer but I feel even sorrier for the
> > >parents of those Belgian Paratroopers who were hacked up and murdered.
> > >
> > >Dave
> > >
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >message body.
> >
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> >
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>
>
>
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[army]

Posted by "Robert Childs" <adanac1@home.com> on Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:58:28 -0400
It has always been Us vs Them. Right or wrong I have always thought that I
was entitled to my own opinion.
BTW I am not in the CF .
> PTSD affects all ranks Officer and NCM of the CF incl the army, navy
> and airforce. LGen Dallaire was one of the prime movers to get the CF
> to do something about PTSD and there are now clinics all across Canada
> to help members deal with issues.
>
> Shame on you for trying to make this an "Us vs them" issue. There is no
> place for it in the CF.
>
> Robert Childs wrote:
> >
> > if this is what it did to a Gen what the **** did it do to the men and
women
> > of lower ranks.
> > Or is only the Gen that gets all the media. attention. If it had been
> > anyone else the matter would have just been their imagination.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: "dave"
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:29 PM
> > Subject: Gen Dellaire
> >
> > > Re: Gordon Dundas on Gen Dellaire,
> > >
> > > I too feel much sympathy for this man. I must admit however I do have
> > mixed
> > > feelings about what has been reported visa vie his actions on the
ground.
> > I
> > > know one has to take media reports with a "grain of salt" but,
regardless
> > of
> > > what the UN orders may have been, doesn‘t the prevailing circumstances
> > > overide essentially what must be viewed as policy rather that standing
> > > orders. If as a leader and main decision maker you are confronted with
> > what
> > > must have been a horrendous circumstance that could not wait for
higher
> > > authority, are you going to act or are you going to wait for the
> > > machinations of UN HQ? Since he was aware of the potential why were
the
> > > heavy support weapons not taken out of storage? The Belgians seemed to
> > have
> > > had a handle on what was needed in bringing those weapons with them,
why
> > > were they locked up? Well we know why, the UN did not want to portray
an
> > > intimidating impression. Doesn‘t that all go out the window when the
> > balloon
> > > goes up? I feel sorry for this officer but I feel even sorrier for the
> > > parents of those Belgian Paratroopers who were hacked up and murdered.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
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[army]

Posted by "michelle Bleasdale" <m_bleasdale@HOTMAIL.COM> on Sat, 15 Apr 2000 04:42:58 PDT
Mr. Dundas,
You are quite right. I apologize for not being as careful as I might have
been. Sorry, Michelle.
>From: Gordan Dundas
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: Gen Dellaire
>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:57:08 -0500
>
>Ahhh Michelle....
> could you be alittle more careful when cropping postings .You current
>posting
>appears to makes it look like I wrote theoffending piece on Lt. Gen.
>Dallaire. I
>am in fact in total agreement with you.
>
>michelle Bleasdale wrote:
>
> > Ackowledging the tragedy of the situation and the sadness felt by the
> > families of the Belgian paratroopers who were killed, I think we cannot
> > fault Gen Dallaire on his actions. The fact is, this was not a situation
> > where independent action should have overruled "policy" as you put it.
> >
> > Gen Dallaire‘s force was far too small to accomplish anything within the
> > scale of massacre that was going on throughout the country. He had no
> > intelligence institution, no way of getting his troops around safely, no
> > knowledge of what was happening, where, no ability to protect his troops
> > should the mass of the marauding population turn on them as they did on
>the
> > Belgians and certainly no way of preventing further reprisals against
>other
> > UN or aid agency workers.
> >
> > We could look at it the other way around. In a country where almost a
> > million are reported to have been slaughterd, General Dallaire lost only
>as
> > few as he did.
> >
> > Armies are not rabbles, and the nations of the UN put the troops there
>under
> > a specific mandate, agreed to by the sovereign government of Rwanda. It
>was
> > not General Dallaire‘s call to take things into his own hands, contrary
>to
> > formal instructions from the UN Security Council, or against the wishes
>of
> > the host government. That all sounds pretty crappy, but professional
> > soldiers are required to obey higher guidance, no matter what they think
>of
> > it.
> >
> > If General Dallaire did throw caution to the wind and order his troops
>to
> > start shooting Rwandans, I for one don‘t think he or any of his troops
>would
> > ever have come home.
> >
> > Looked at in the long view of history, General Dallaire will be seen as
>the
> > one guy who tried to do the right thing, in impossible circumstances.
> > Michelle.
> >
> > >From: "dave"
> > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >To:
> > >Subject: Gen Dellaire
> > >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:29:13 -0400
> > >
> > >Re: Gordon Dundas on Gen Dellaire,
> > >
> > >I too feel much sympathy for this man. I must admit however I do have
>mixed
> > >feelings about what has been reported visa vie his actions on the
>ground. I
> > >know one has to take media reports with a "grain of salt" but,
>regardless
> > >of
> > >what the UN orders may have been, doesn‘t the prevailing circumstances
> > >overide essentially what must be viewed as policy rather that standing
> > >orders. If as a leader and main decision maker you are confronted with
>what
> > >must have been a horrendous circumstance that could not wait for higher
> > >authority, are you going to act or are you going to wait for the
> > >machinations of UN HQ? Since he was aware of the potential why were the
> > >heavy support weapons not taken out of storage? The Belgians seemed to
>have
> > >had a handle on what was needed in bringing those weapons with them,
>why
> > >were they locked up? Well we know why, the UN did not want to portray
>an
> > >intimidating impression. Doesn‘t that all go out the window when the
> > >balloon
> > >goes up? I feel sorry for this officer but I feel even sorrier for the
> > >parents of those Belgian Paratroopers who were hacked up and murdered.
> > >
> > >Dave
> > >
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >message body.
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
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[army]

Posted by Gunner <randr1@home.com> on Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:54:55 -0600
If you are not in the military, the you don‘t know what you are talking
about. It if very easy to minimize an issue by saying its us vs them,
but real soldiers know it is only a team effort to accomplish the
mission. Not having faith and respect for your leaders takes away from
unit cohesivness.
Robert Childs wrote:
>
> It has always been Us vs Them. Right or wrong I have always thought that I
> was entitled to my own opinion.
> BTW I am not in the CF .
>
> > PTSD affects all ranks Officer and NCM of the CF incl the army, navy
> > and airforce. LGen Dallaire was one of the prime movers to get the CF
> > to do something about PTSD and there are now clinics all across Canada
> > to help members deal with issues.
> >
> > Shame on you for trying to make this an "Us vs them" issue. There is no
> > place for it in the CF.
> >
> > Robert Childs wrote:
> > >
> > > if this is what it did to a Gen what the **** did it do to the men and
> women
> > > of lower ranks.
> > > Or is only the Gen that gets all the media. attention. If it had been
> > > anyone else the matter would have just been their imagination.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: "dave"
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:29 PM
> > > Subject: Gen Dellaire
> > >
> > > > Re: Gordon Dundas on Gen Dellaire,
> > > >
> > > > I too feel much sympathy for this man. I must admit however I do have
> > > mixed
> > > > feelings about what has been reported visa vie his actions on the
> ground.
> > > I
> > > > know one has to take media reports with a "grain of salt" but,
> regardless
> > > of
> > > > what the UN orders may have been, doesn‘t the prevailing circumstances
> > > > overide essentially what must be viewed as policy rather that standing
> > > > orders. If as a leader and main decision maker you are confronted with
> > > what
> > > > must have been a horrendous circumstance that could not wait for
> higher
> > > > authority, are you going to act or are you going to wait for the
> > > > machinations of UN HQ? Since he was aware of the potential why were
> the
> > > > heavy support weapons not taken out of storage? The Belgians seemed to
> > > have
> > > > had a handle on what was needed in bringing those weapons with them,
> why
> > > > were they locked up? Well we know why, the UN did not want to portray
> an
> > > > intimidating impression. Doesn‘t that all go out the window when the
> > > balloon
> > > > goes up? I feel sorry for this officer but I feel even sorrier for the
> > > > parents of those Belgian Paratroopers who were hacked up and murdered.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
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> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
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[army]

Posted by "Pierre Ducas" <lelou12@HOTMAIL.COM> on Sat, 22 Apr 2000 02:26:05 GMT
Don‘t anyone knows that he was told to withdraw a month before the attack
and he refused....... Can anyone confirm that...
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