French troops were killed after Italy hushed up ‘bribes’ to Taleban

[GAP]

French troops were killed after Italy hushed up ‘bribes’ to Taleban
Article Link
October 15, 2009

When ten French soldiers were killed last year in an ambush by Afghan insurgents in what had seemed a relatively peaceful area, the French public were horrified.

Their revulsion increased with the news that many of the dead soldiers had been mutilated — and with the publication of photographs showing the militants triumphantly sporting their victims’ flak jackets and weapons. The French had been in charge of the Sarobi area, east of Kabul, for only a month, taking over from the Italians; it was one of the biggest single losses of life by Nato forces in Afghanistan.

What the grieving nation did not know was that in the months before the French soldiers arrived in mid-2008, the Italian secret service had been paying tens of thousands of dollars to Taleban commanders and local warlords to keep the area quiet, The Times has learnt. The clandestine payments, whose existence was hidden from the incoming French forces, were disclosed by Western military officials.

US intelligence officials were flabbergasted when they found out through intercepted telephone conversations that the Italians had also been buying off militants, notably in Herat province in the far west. In June 2008, several weeks before the ambush, the US Ambassador in Rome made a démarche, or diplomatic protest, to the Berlusconi Government over allegations concerning the tactic.
More on link

 

[vonGarvin]

Wow.  In World War One, Italy adopted a "wait and see" policy before joining on the side of the Triple Entente.  In the next war, they switched sides.  Are they doing the same now?  :

 

[ballz]

Da FUCK???

A couple people should be sent a .50 calibre bullet via air for this one. :sniper:

 

[The Bread Guy]

...courtesy of France's wire service Agence France-Presse - highlights mine:

The French military Thursday dismissed as "baseless" a British newspaper report that French troops died in Afghanistan because Italy had failed to inform them of a Taliban payoff deal.

The Times of London said 10 French soldiers were killed in Sarobi district east of Kabul in August 2008 because they were not told that Italy had been paying the Taliban not to carry out attacks and failed to properly assess risks.

Admiral Christophe Prazuck, spokesman for the armed forces general staff, said he had "no information enabling us to confirm the reports published in the British press."

"These are rumours, and it is not the first time we have heard them," Prazuck said, dismissing the report as "baseless."

"French forces are present along with the Turks and Italians in the Kabul region where we have been commanding operations in a coordinated and fully transparent manner for more than two years," he said.

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's office also described the report as "totally baseless".

"The Berlusconi government has never authorised any kind of money payment to members of the Taliban insurrection in Afghanistan, and has no knowledge of initiatives of this type by the previous government," it said.

General Eric Tremblay, a spokesman for NATO's International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, told AFP that he was "not aware" of Italy having paid off Taliban militants.

"If it does go on, it's the Afghan government (that does it) rather than international forces," he said.

But a senior officer with the Afghan army insisted Italian forces had bribed Taliban fighters to avoid being targeted.

"We knew that Italian forces were paying the opposition (fighters) in Surobi so they would not be attacked. We have information on similar agreements made in the western Herat province by Italian soldiers under NATO command there," the army officer said on condition of anonymity.

"A lot of NATO countries with troops operating in the rural areas of Afghanistan pay the insurgents so not to be attacked," the officer added.

Earlier on Friday, the father of one of the French soldiers killed spoke of his grief in an interview with France's RTL radio.

"It was a terrible blow, it just makes the pain even worse," Joel Le Pahun said. "It reopens a wound that has yet to heal. We want the French officers responsible for what happened to be punished.

"If it turns out to be true the Italians did this, it would not do honour to their army or their government. On top of that, the fact they failed to tell the French forces about it is truly catastrophic on their behalf."....

 

[leroi]

Bolded by me:

“It might well make sense to buy off local groups and use non-violence to keep violence down. But it is madness to do so and not inform your allies.”

Is this  article true or is this some form of dis-information Black Ops? ???

If True:

I guess I have a letter to write to someone political and as a civilian I don't know who is best to write it to but will make inquiries.

This idea that the incoming force, French in this case, did not get briefed by the outgoing force on their defensive modus operandi, Italian in that case, is en- :rage: ing!!!

Once again, observing this war from the naivety and civilian comfort of Canada must preclude me from a better understanding of: Simply removing all of those persons from the theatre of war in Afghanistan who/when it can be proven they have failed to effectively communicate VITAL information that consequently leads to the mortality of another countries soldiers.

*Is it fair to blame the entire Italian army or Italy itself for this? I don't think so--unless it can be proven they were all complicit.
*Is this war in Afghanistan typically fought by buying protection?  If so, then we might as well pull Canadian troops out now and just sent the al-qaeda backed Taliban a shitload of money so they can continue re-fuelling worldwide insurgencies. At least that way, our blood, our treasure could remain at home alive and on Canadian soil! Maybe we could just pay the bass-turds off to leave their terror outside of our door before they enter Canada.

I think I've understood the concept of Friendly Fire, that accidents can happen anywhere, and I think I understand the concept that war can be a fog, a blur, but to negligently fail to communicate this VITAL tactical information to another nation's incoming troops is unforgivable.

I think, also, if it was Canada who made a mistake of this magnitude, we would already be hung in the courts of public opinion and would have masochistically set up untold commissions of inquiry--it would have been an international scandal fueling the Troops Out Now campaign back here at home.

(Edit: I'm out'a here before I give myself a nose bleed--I would love for this piece of news to be untrue and welcome any corrections anyone would like to make if my comments are errant, misguided, naive or just plain stupid, etc.)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It's so Italian to pay bribe to keep things cool. Paying the locals to keep the peace is fine, but doing so without informing your allies is crazy. I sspect there is some bad blood flowing between the 2 governments right now.

 

[PMedMoe]

Italy denies paying off Taliban
Article Link

ROME - Italy and NATO on Thursday denied a newspaper report that the Italian intelligence secretly paid the Taliban thousands of dollars to maintain peace in an area in Afghanistan that was under Italian control.

Premier Silvio Berlusconi's office called the report in the Times of London "completely groundless." The Italian defence minister denounced it as "rubbish" and said he wanted to sue the newspaper.

In Kabul, a U.S. spokesman for NATO forces in Afghanistan denied the allegations. "We don't do bribes," Col. Wayne Shanks said. "We don't pay the insurgents."

The Times reported that Italy had paid "tens of thousands of dollars" to Taliban commanders and warlords in the Surobi district, east of the capital, Kabul. The newspaper cited Western military officials, including high-ranking officers at NATO, speaking on condition of anonymity.

It accused Rome of failing to inform its allies about the payments and of misleading the French, who took over the Surobi district in mid-2008, into thinking the area was quiet and safe. Shortly afterward, French troops were hit with an ambush that killed 10 soldiers and had big political repercussions back in Paris.

French Defence Ministry spokesman Christophe Prazuck said he had "no information to confirm what has been written in the Times" and stressed that allied troops in Afghanistan share information and enjoy mutual trust.

More on link

 

[brandon_]

I do not have the link right now.

But i was reading this in history class.  It said somewhere that the defence minister is planing to sue the times...

Ill look for the link...

 

[The Bread Guy]

1)  A bit on the proposed litigation:

The Italian government has vehemently denied a report in “The Times” that it paid off Afghan warlords and was indirectly responsible for the deaths of 10 French soldiers in an ambush last year.

The paper says US communication intercepts discovered the Italian secret service made payments of tens of thousands of euros to warlords, in an area then under Italian control.
Italy’s defence minister said he is preparing a lawsuit against “The Times”:

“The report we paid the Taliban not to be attacked is first of all offensive for the dead we have suffered in Afghanistan, and I can confirm that not only the Defence Ministry but not any other governmental body has ever worked in the way that the Times has described,” said Ignazio La Russa ....

2)  A bit more on this allegation in particular, and the "bribe the tribes" approach in general:

.... the biggest flaw in the “bribe the Taliban” argument: What happens when you stop paying?

Once again, the Iraq example is instructive. Responsibility for paying Sunni tribal militias, referred to by the U.S. military as the Sons of Iraq (SoI), was handed over to the government of Iraq, and a certain number of SoI were eventually supposed to be absorbed into Iraq’s security forces. But not all has gone to plan: Earlier this year, fighting erupted in Baghdad after the arrest of Adel Mashadani, a Sunni militia leader and key figure in the “Awakening” movement. As the central government moved to disarm and disband Awakening councils, it prompted concern about a renewed violence in Iraq as U.S. troops packed up for withdrawal.

And Afghanistan presents a much more difficult case. Iraq’s central government can count on a decent stream of revenue; Afghanistan’s government is pretty much broke. Bribery may work to a point, but it seems highly unlikely that Kabul could keep its internal opponents on the payroll when its operating budget is largely drawn from foreign aid and it can barely cover the cost of maintaining its army and police.

 

[Jarnhamar]

This isn't new to Italy.

Little while ago one of their reporters were kidnapped in Iraq (or Afghanistan whatever). The US said to the insurgents we do NOT neeotiate for prisoners (lest it elicit more kidnappings)

Well Italy decided to go behind the US's back and make a deal anyways.  They naturally didn't tell the US and when the freed prisoners drove towards the US checkpoint at a high rate of speed, probably out of fear, the US guys lit them up. Killed the driver and wounded the reporter I think?  Italy didn't bother telling the US that they made a deal and to expect their own people to come through the checkpoint.

Yup, screw Italy.

 

[X-mo-1979]

While I believe there is merit in buying off tribal militias to aid us,it should be done at NATO level.As doing it at the country level I believe you risk paying off wrong people who in turn are against a tribe another NATO country is funding.Suddenly the USA ,Canada U.K, Italy are essentially in Proxy wars with one another!

 

[Jarnhamar]

While I believe there is merit in buying off tribal militias to aid us,it should be done at NATO level.As doing it at the country level I believe you risk paying off wrong people who in turn are against a tribe another NATO country is funding.Suddenly the USA ,Canada U.K, Italy are essentially in Proxy wars with one another!

I know buying people gets results but I think as far as Afghanistan goes it doesn't help. (Agreeing with that you're saying)
I find it makes then even more lazy and greedy.
Locals show up for work getting paid a considerable amount all things considering and it's
When am I getting paid
I want more money
I want food
I want a 2 hour lunch break and I want off at 230 so I can pray and do tea time the rest of the day.
OH I also want more money.

I think one of our biggest mistakes in Afghanistan was that we came in throwing money around. They know that higher ups are desperate for any kinda results and use it against us. I read a great comment from someone before, basically we taught them the concept of western welfare.

I wonder how much of that 'peace money' Italy was dishing out was spend on IEDs that killed our troops.

 

[GAP]

I think one of our biggest mistakes in Afghanistan was that we came in throwing money around. They know that higher ups are desperate for any kinda results and use it against us. I read a great comment from someone before, basically we taught them the concept of western welfare.

Every country the US has gone into to help has ended up with a false economy. Italy literally killed other NATO servicemen in it's pursuit of selfish safety. The economic crash in Afghanistan once NATO leaves is going to really hurt the country and everything that was built up.

 

[midget-boyd91]

Wow.
If it turns out to be true... Italy has the blood of many good French soldiers on their hands. Nations have been suspended from the commonwelth before. What about suspensions from NATO? (Be advised that comment is from a civvie with no international affairs degree, and half a bottle of Chivas consumed)
If this turns out to be flase... I fully support any lawsuit by the Italians against 'The Sun,' and hope that it would bring this tabloid paper out of publication.

(Alcohol asideand genuinely curious) What history of suspensions from NATO (if any) is there?

Oddball

 

[Armymedic]

The allegations, regardless of if true or not, has just undercut all NATO allies in their attempt to "improve" the situation in Afghanistan.

This combined with the international interpretation of the elections results will put nails into the casket of this mission for us and everyone else.

 

[The Bread Guy]

....if you believe this Agence France-Presse account:

.... according to a number of Western and Afghan officers, all speaking on condition of anonymity, the politically sensitive practice is fairly widespread among NATO forces in Afghanistan.

One Western military source told of payments made by Canadian soldiers stationed in the violent southern province of Kandahar, while another officer spoke of similar practices by the German army in northern Kunduz.

"I can tell you that lots of countries under the NATO umbrella operating out in rural parts of Afghanistan do pay the militants for not attacking them," the senior Afghan official said.

He added that it "seems to be the practice with military forces from some NATO countries, excluding the US forces under NATO, the British forces and the whole coalition forces" under the US-led "Operation Enduring Freedom".

"I think more than 50 percent of NATO forces deployed in rural Afghanistan have such deals or at least have struck such deals" to ensure peace, the official said.

He said he did not want to say precisely how many but one Western officer said: "As it's not very positive and not officially recognised, it's never spoken about openly. It's a bit shameful.

"Consequently, it's sometimes not communicated properly between the old unit and the new unit that comes in to relieve them," which may have happened between the Italians and the French ....

A CEFCOM spokesperson denies this, bringing up a good point:

"I haven't heard of any type of payment that would be done by our troops in order to remain protected," said Lt.-Col. Chris Lemay, a spokesperson with the Canadian Expeditionary Forces Command.  "With the number of casualties we've been getting, had we paid these guys they wouldn't be holding up their end of their bargain."

 

[leroi]

The allegations, regardless of if true or not, has just undercut all NATO allies in their attempt to "improve" the situation in Afghanistan.

This combined with the international interpretation of the elections results will put nails into the casket of this mission for us and everyone else.

I agree SFB and this is why I refuse to believe in it's absolute truth yet for I suspect our enemies love playing these types of demoralizing games in an attempt to fractionalize ISAF in theatre and, as you say, undercut support for the the mission in NATO home countries. But whether truth or fiction, the perception of this will be bad PR for the Afghan mission.

Now that the allegation of 'bribes for tribes' is being alleged in the press against Canada and other nations, isn't it time for someone in our political class to take a stand and make a public statement?

If this tactic of paying for protection is used by Canada, I'm thinking it's done in a worst case scenario and only after careful consideration when situations arise that present immediate danger and require immediate action and cannot be resolved in an a more traditional manner. I refuse to believe Canada is carelessly and regularly throwing money at insurgents to keep them at bay.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I agree SFB and this is why I refuse to believe in it's absolute truth yet for I suspect our enemies love playing these types of demoralizing games in an attempt to fractionalize ISAF in theatre and, as you say, undercut support for the the mission in NATO home countries. But whether truth or fiction, the perception of this will be bad PR for the Afghan mission.

Along these lines, now we have a Taliban "commander" confirming this:

After furious denials in Rome of a Times report that the Italian authorities had paid the bribes, the Afghans gave further details of the practice. Mohammed Ishmayel, a Taleban commander, said that a deal was struck last year so that Italian forces in the Sarobi area, east of Kabul, were not attacked by local insurgents .... Mr Ishmayel said that under the deal it was agreed that “neither side should attack one another. That is why we were informed at that time, that we should not attack the Nato troops.” The insurgents were not informed when the Italian forces left the area and assumed they had broken the deal. Afghan officials also said they were aware of the practice by Italian forces in other areas of Afghanistan.

Must be true then, right? 

 

[OldSolduer]

Now we are being painted with the same brush.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20091016/Canada_Taliban_091016/20091016?hub=TopStoriesV2

If this takes hold and the Canadian public beleives it....we're done.
So is the MND.

 

[leroi]

I've been googling stuff on this all day (dishes not done) now I've got to go to my real job. I'll look up this later:

Naylor, Sean, “Insurgents in Afghanistan Have Mastered Media Manipulation,”
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2008/04/3489740
2008/04/3489740.

The Sean Naylor report (above) is found in the reference section of the 2009 report (below) with a caveat--I've only read half of it but it's an interesting (although disheartening) read:

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/taliban_winning_strategy.pdf

(Edit to fix first link)