Former Canadian Pilots Training PLAAF

[Lumber]

Apologies if this has already been talked about.

I found this on Reddit, and quite frankly, I'm disgusted.

Meet the pilots behind China’s growing ‘Top Gun’ program (and the Canadian team training them)

If you weren’t worried about TFASA before, here’s why you should be

medium.com

 

[Blackadder1916]

There was mention of it a year ago in this other thread.

D

Post in thread '"UK to issue ‘threat alert’ over China’s attempts to recruit RAF pilots"'

5 Sep 2023

The Globe and Mail reports three former RCAF fighter pilots, employed through a South African company, are training pilots in China.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1699032182000386467

• dapaterson

• 

 

[KevinB]

So their training pipeline slowed down to nothing?

 

[dapaterson]

Nothing wrong that a CFSA amendment requiring recipients of payments under the CFSA to be permanent residents in Canada wouldn't solve.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Nothing wrong that a CFSA amendment requiring recipients of payments under the CFSA to be permanent residents in Canada wouldn't solve.

I don't think that's necessary.

Punish individual transgressions.

 

[brihard]

Nothing wrong that a CFSA amendment requiring recipients of payments under the CFSA to be permanent residents in Canada wouldn't solve.

So my dad who served 35 years, retired, married a citizen of an allied country and moved there should lose his pension because some other guys are training Chinese? That’s an unusually sloppy and ineffective policy approach for you.

 

[dapaterson]

Fair. Firing from the hip.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Counterpoint(s):

1. The Company they are working for is South African and is based in South Africa. They have various contracts with various agencies, corporations and govts.

2. It just so happens this Company was contracted by the Chinese Govt to teach PLAAF students.

Lots of stuff on that here:

TFASA | Test Flying Academy of South Africa

TFASA offers experimental and maintenance test flying services and consultancy, test pilot and flight test engineer training, advanced flight instruction, and aerial advertising. TFASA is also the agent for the Blackshape and Ikarus C42 aircraft.

www.tfasa.com

US regulators sanction former UK, South African test pilots over Chinese military training

The US government has blacklisted more private companies over alleged connections to the training of Chinese military aviators, including two firms operated by former test pilots in the UK Royal Air Force and South African Air Force.

www.flightglobal.com

Oudtshoorn Municipality partners with the Test Flying Academy of South Africa for airport management

The Oudtshoorn Municipality has entered into another 9 Years & 11 months Service Level Agreement with TFASA (Test Flying Academy of South Africa) on Wednesday, 04 September 2024, after an open and transparent tender process to manage and operate the Oudtshoorn Airport on council’s behalf. Under

www.arrivealive.co.za

Former Canadian fighter pilots face RCMP probe over training work in China

Their South African flying academy employer says they are not sharing NATO tactics or secrets

www.theglobeandmail.com

3. They are private citizens and are free to do as they please. There is absolutely zero evidence they ever broke any laws. The only thing they have is "trained some pilots who happened to be Chinese Air Force"....

4. They haven't served in the CAF in a number of years.


I'll also add that the CAF and by extension, the GoC, has a well-documented reputation for treating people poorly. Loyalty is a two-way street and is earned. The CAF has very little credibility when it comes to loyalty.

It's also funny how we are wasting so much effort on a few ex-fighter pilots trying to earn a $$$ buck when Politicians, Senior Leaders, Business Execs and GoC Officials have all had their tongues so far up Xi Jinping's & the CCP's ass for years. The Power Corporation of Canada and all the various Ex-PMs and Politicans who serve on its board are the ones we should be pointing our guns at.

 

[brihard]

Counterpoint(s):

1. The Company they are working for is South African and is based in South Africa. They have various contracts with various agencies, corporations and govts.

2. It just so happens this Company was contracted by the Chinese Govt to teach PLAAF students.

Lots of stuff on that here:

TFASA | Test Flying Academy of South Africa

TFASA offers experimental and maintenance test flying services and consultancy, test pilot and flight test engineer training, advanced flight instruction, and aerial advertising. TFASA is also the agent for the Blackshape and Ikarus C42 aircraft.

www.tfasa.com

US regulators sanction former UK, South African test pilots over Chinese military training

The US government has blacklisted more private companies over alleged connections to the training of Chinese military aviators, including two firms operated by former test pilots in the UK Royal Air Force and South African Air Force.

www.flightglobal.com

Oudtshoorn Municipality partners with the Test Flying Academy of South Africa for airport management

The Oudtshoorn Municipality has entered into another 9 Years & 11 months Service Level Agreement with TFASA (Test Flying Academy of South Africa) on Wednesday, 04 September 2024, after an open and transparent tender process to manage and operate the Oudtshoorn Airport on council’s behalf. Under

www.arrivealive.co.za

Former Canadian fighter pilots face RCMP probe over training work in China

Their South African flying academy employer says they are not sharing NATO tactics or secrets

www.theglobeandmail.com

3. They are private citizens and are free to do as they please. There is absolutely zero evidence they ever broke any laws. The only thing they have is "trained some pilots who happened to be Chinese Air Force"....

4. They haven't served in the CAF in a number of years.


I'll also add that the CAF and by extension, the GoC, has a well-documented reputation for treating people poorly. Loyalty is a two-way street and is earned. The CAF has very little credibility when it comes to loyalty.

It's also funny how we are wasting so much effort on a few ex-fighter pilots trying to earn a $$$ buck when Politicians, Senior Leaders, Business Execs and GoC Officials have all had their tongues so far up Xi Jinping's & the CCP's ass for years. The Power Corporation of Canada and all the various Ex-PMs and Politicans who serve on its board are the ones we should be pointing our guns at.

All of us here lack enough info to support what you’re pronouncing. We don’t know what evidence exists.

“Loyalty is a two way street” is true to an extent. But that’s not a provision found in the Security of Information Act. I don’t know if fighter pilots are Permanently Bound to Secrecy; I think I can safely guess that they are.

Investigation would need to determine if, in the course of their training, they communicate “special operational information” (see S.8 FISOIA), or, “information that the Government of Canada or of a province is taking measures to safeguard”.

I don’t know the answers. These would be key questions to ask in an investigation. Anyone who has possessed or accessed classified information is under ongoing legal obligations. All the moreso if bound by SOIA. Retirement and emigration is not a carte blanche.

This would probably be a challenging investigation given the difficulty in knowing precisely what information was communicated in the training.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Counterpoint(s):

1. The Company they are working for is South African and is based in South Africa. They have various contracts with various agencies, corporations and govts.

2. It just so happens this Company was contracted by the Chinese Govt to teach PLAAF students.

Lots of stuff on that here:

TFASA | Test Flying Academy of South Africa

TFASA offers experimental and maintenance test flying services and consultancy, test pilot and flight test engineer training, advanced flight instruction, and aerial advertising. TFASA is also the agent for the Blackshape and Ikarus C42 aircraft.

www.tfasa.com

US regulators sanction former UK, South African test pilots over Chinese military training

The US government has blacklisted more private companies over alleged connections to the training of Chinese military aviators, including two firms operated by former test pilots in the UK Royal Air Force and South African Air Force.

www.flightglobal.com

Oudtshoorn Municipality partners with the Test Flying Academy of South Africa for airport management

The Oudtshoorn Municipality has entered into another 9 Years & 11 months Service Level Agreement with TFASA (Test Flying Academy of South Africa) on Wednesday, 04 September 2024, after an open and transparent tender process to manage and operate the Oudtshoorn Airport on council’s behalf. Under

www.arrivealive.co.za

Former Canadian fighter pilots face RCMP probe over training work in China

Their South African flying academy employer says they are not sharing NATO tactics or secrets

www.theglobeandmail.com

3. They are private citizens and are free to do as they please. There is absolutely zero evidence they ever broke any laws. The only thing they have is "trained some pilots who happened to be Chinese Air Force"....

4. They haven't served in the CAF in a number of years.


I'll also add that the CAF and by extension, the GoC, has a well-documented reputation for treating people poorly. Loyalty is a two-way street and is earned. The CAF has very little credibility when it comes to loyalty.

It's also funny how we are wasting so much effort on a few ex-fighter pilots trying to earn a $$$ buck when Politicians, Senior Leaders, Business Execs and GoC Officials have all had their tongues so far up Xi Jinping's & the CCP's ass for years. The Power Corporation of Canada and all the various Ex-PMs and Politicans who serve on its board are the ones we should be pointing our guns at.

Maybe they didn’t share classified information (but I strongly suspect they did - as soon as you start talking about tactics, you get into the classified realm pretty quickly). But even if they didn’t, they still did something ethically and morally reprehensible: help the enemy fight and defeat their (former) friends. Even if it only means the PLAAF has a better sortie because the administrative, non-tactical portions of their flights are more efficient and safer, it is an increase in combat capabilities for the PLAAF. They are persona non grata within my unit lines.

 

[Lumber]

I'll also add that the CAF and by extension, the GoC, has a well-documented reputation for treating people poorly. Loyalty is a two-way street and is earned. The CAF has very little credibility when it comes to loyalty.

We're not talking about loyalty to the "CAF" or the "GoC", we're talking about loyalty to Canada and Canadians.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

All of us here lack enough info to support what you’re pronouncing. We don’t know what evidence exists.

“Loyalty is a two way street” is true to an extent. But that’s not a provision found in the Security of Information Act. I don’t know if fighter pilots are Permanently Bound to Secrecy; I think I can safely guess that they are.

Investigation would need to determine if, in the course of their training, they communicate “special operational information” (see S.8 FISOIA), or, “information that the Government of Canada or of a province is taking measures to safeguard”.

I don’t know the answers. These would be key questions to ask in an investigation. Anyone who has possessed or accessed classified information is under ongoing legal obligations. All the moreso if bound by SOIA. Retirement and emigration is not a carte blanche.

This would probably be a challenging investigation given the difficulty in knowing precisely what information was communicated in the training.

Agreed on your points related to the SIA, @brihard , but this reads like a smear campaign at the moment. There has been no evidence to date that has been presented that indicates any of these individuals have done anything wrong.

There have been plenty of assumptions made here though.

My point on loyalty isn't really specific to this case. It's just a general statement. There is plenty of apathy towards the CAF and the Government at the moment. I see it everywhere and feel it from many people. The veteran community is particular bad for it.

That apathy has bred contempt which in some cases, is nihilistic. I mean, you saw that nihilism in full swing during Convoypolooza in downtown Ottawa.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Agreed on your points related to the SIA, @brihard , but this reads like a smear campaign at the moment. There has been no evidence to date that has been presented that indicates any of these individuals have done anything wrong illegal.

FTFY

 

[Quirky]

One guy is an ex-Snowbird pilot, maybe they’re teaching the Chinese Air Force the big heart?

 

[Booter]

Hey! Only our elected officials can are allowed to benefit from a relationship with them! The rules say that.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Maybe they didn’t share classified information (but I strongly suspect they did - as soon as you start talking about tactics, you get into the classified realm pretty quickly). But even if they didn’t, they still did something ethically and morally reprehensible: help the enemy fight and defeat their (former) friends. Even if it only means the PLAAF has a better sortie because the administrative, non-tactical portions of their flights are more efficient and safer, it is an increase in combat capabilities for the PLAAF. They are persona non grata within my unit lines.

I find it's an interesting case, mostly because it's an extension of the MIC/PMC growth we've seen over the past 25/30 years. Yet another evolution of services provided by PMCs.

I just find it interesting that this case has stirred so much controversy... Considering how many ethically questionable decisions I've seen go unanswered that are a bigger issue than this.

Jesus, King PMC himself has been heavily involved in China:

Frontier Services Group - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Not even a whisper about any of that.

Like I said above, the current PMs father, Jean Chretien, Paul Martin and a host of other big time Lib Politicans got us heavily involved with China via the PCC of which they all sat on the board of directors.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/power-corporation-panama-papers-chinese-1.3544919

This to me is a big nothing burger compared to the bigger issues at the very top of our Governments.

One guy is an ex-Snowbird pilot, maybe they’re teaching the Chinese Air Force the big heart?

Or how to use a Marriott Rewards card

Hey! Only our elected officials can are allowed to benefit from a relationship with them! The rules say that.

They should be keeping this whole thing under wraps and keeping these guys on the payroll. Who else do we know that's been on a Chinese Military Base and flown with them?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We're not talking about loyalty to the "CAF" or the "GoC", we're talking about loyalty to Canada and Canadians.

Perhaps they believe we're a "post-nation state"

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

All of us here lack enough info to support what you’re pronouncing. We don’t know what evidence exists.

“Loyalty is a two way street” is true to an extent. But that’s not a provision found in the Security of Information Act. I don’t know if fighter pilots are Permanently Bound to Secrecy; I think I can safely guess that they are.

Investigation would need to determine if, in the course of their training, they communicate “special operational information” (see S.8 FISOIA), or, “information that the Government of Canada or of a province is taking measures to safeguard”.

I don’t know the answers. These would be key questions to ask in an investigation. Anyone who has possessed or accessed classified information is under ongoing legal obligations. All the moreso if bound by SOIA. Retirement and emigration is not a carte blanche.

This would probably be a challenging investigation given the difficulty in knowing precisely what information was communicated in the training.

We shouldn't pretend as if people here don't know these individuals. The CAF is a pretty small place...
Amazing what information you can glean from people if you simply maintain open dialogue and don't make people "persona non-grata".

 

[captloadie]

I read the entire article yesterday. I came away with the feeling that for some that seeking the almighty dollar trumps all else.

I agree that what they are doing is ethically wrong, and not just the pilots. While I couldn't confirm the link, given the last name, it appears the spouse of "Nacho" is the company's Chief of Staff. The larger question becomes is how many degrees of separation does there need to be before it is acceptable to knowingly provide assistance to the enemy. If a person ships components that end up in Russian drones through shell companies, are they complicit? If ex-CAF members go to a third country and provides basic weapons training to individuals who then return to Syria, or Afghanistan, I'm sure the majority of us would see that as a problem.

Or, on the other side, if Top Aces trains Ukrainian pilots are they now valid targets for Russian reprisals?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Hey! Only our elected officials can are allowed to benefit from a relationship with them! The rules say that.

I know of someone who recently got slapped down on a post CAF career for a conflict of interest that almost lost their second job as a result (the company accomodated them). Meanwhile much more senior officers, civil servants and politicians roll into jobs with much clearer COIs with no issue, so seems like 'who you know' also matters when moving on from DND.

One more reason not to get promoted to ranks where those rules kick in I guess.