Forces will face an exodus of experienced personnel ..

[Col.Steiner]

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/maritimes/story.html?id=90cbbca3-923a-48f4-95d8-6d7ead6c4c9f&p=2

I just read in the Montreal Gazette an article on the growing attrition rates in the forces due presumably to the war in Afghanistan (first I have heard of this). As well, the above link, refers the baby boomers retiring from the services very shortly, which will no doubt leave the forces in the lurch, despite the recruiting objectives being made successfully so far.
These articles, like most articles in papers, make me wonder if they think they are fooling all or some of the people or just those people that they need to eg. the general population.
As anyone who has quit the forces and wished to rejoin, or those already in the reserves who want to go full time, this can prove to an extremely frustrating experience akin to banging ones head on a wall. It is far easier to com off the street and join than to rejoin. To wrap what I am saying in a nutshell, bullshit! I know from personal experience how long and how many flaming hoops I have had to endure since I decided a few years back that I wanted to rejoin. I wasn't taking the reserves too seriously but I did enjoy the experience immensely, unfortunately it just got in the way of my masters program, which I gave preference to. After a few years of maturing and a nice degree under my belt, I made an informed decision involving family and friends and most difficultly, my wife, to rejoin.
Well things didn't go as smoothly as I would have hoped; I flew out of the country to teach English in a very nonthreatening country security-wise, and I fell into the 'out of the country for more than 6 months in the last ten years' clause, and I was immediately brushed into the chasm of self doubt and a two year waiting time for a mysterious 'pre-sec', which I still am in the dark about -who is doing what with my file right now? And you certainly cannot phone this person up to see what's up so far. I guess they have to take security seriously, but 2 years? Really? Are they that busy that they can't make it a priority to fast-track people like me who want to join and have proven it by waiting years for the privilege to rejoin? If I can see it through the eyes of a recruiter I would see an individual who has toughed it out for a few years, spent copious amounts of time and energy in doing the steps it took to get himself to this point, and above all, a mature person who was already in the forces, and made a choice to come back a little older and a little more wise. A person who has had so many file bungles such as I had (my file had sat on some dud's desk who retired the day I gave it to him, so it say there collecting dust while I thought it was in the hands of of those we no nothing about - CSIS? That took 4 months added to my up to 2 year wait. Then the file was misfile again for 3 months but that wasn't explained to me despite my best efforts) All this in the real world would clearly show a person who would most likely stay the course, as he has been through it before and knows what awaits of him. I wouldn't let this son of a be-ach go, I would kiss his arse and do whatever it took to keep him interested and motivated to stay the course of this idiotic and overly bureaucratic jumbled mess of a mystery called the pre-security check.
But that isn't the case, and I seriously wouldn't expect it from them, but that is what you would get from a private firm who wanted you as badly as the forces needs soldiers. I guess to sum up what I am saying is that there is a lot of hot air but no real and defined effort to solve the problems that the forces are facing. I can understand the long wait for an individual who may be from a country of concern, such as Iran, but for a white-bread, born in farmtown/hockeytown Peterborough, I just don't get the intense scrutiny. The right people seem to know the problems, but are they able to do anything about them?

 

[Greymatters]

You sound like you will make a great addition to the CF - youve got the 'bitching' part down pat!  ;D

Seriously, its not an easy road for everyone, all you can do is keep dogging them and dont let them forget youre interested...

 

[Col.Steiner]

Yes, I suppose I couldn't avoid a 'bitchy' tone, as the post was intended to illustrate my situation ans I assume many others who have gone through the same. When I see all the articles in the media about conscripts attrition and baby-boomers retiring soon, I just can't help feeling a little outraged. I want to scream and shot and say 'hey what about me?' (that sounds like a beginning of a cheesy song, sorry). Problems keeping soldiers  +  baby boomers (skilled personnel) leaving should = speeding up some of the bullsh1t redtape and get the men into the boots faster. How many recruits say to hell with the process and give up because of this kind of bumbling, recruits that very possibly may have been excellent additions to the forces? The forces is moaning about these problems but are not doing anything about them, this bureaucratic quagmire is a Canadian staple throughout all levels of government and should be severed!

 

[Shamrock]

How many recruits say to hell with the process and give up because of this kind of bumbling, recruits that very possibly may have been excellent additions to the forces?

The problem extends beyond retention, it also includes (1) training the influx of new troops (or lack of facilities for training) and (2) preventing the mass exodus from occuring in another 25 years -- that means staggering recruit intakes. 

Baby boomers are yesterday's problem.  Today's problem is impetuous youth demanding instant gratification.

 

[dapaterson]

. When I see all the articles in the media about conscripts attrition

Get the facts straight.  Ther are no conscripts in the Canadian military.

Words have meanings.  Clear meanings.  So educate yourself first, then open your mouth.

 

[Doom]

yea, i'd have to agree with dapaterson. from my knowledge there is no conscripts.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I just read in the Montreal Gazette an article on the growing attrition rates in the forces due presumably to the war in Afghanistan.

Hmmm, how about as a result of the recruiting surge of the early 80s?  While some like to imagine a steady level of recruitments and releases each year, that is not reflected in relity.  And each recruiting surge will naturally be followed 20-25 years later with increased numbers of releases.  There's no mystery here, no matter what conspiracy a reporter may wish to imagine.

 

[dapaterson]

How dare you employ common sense and logic?  Next you'll suggest that the lack of recruiting in the 90s, to make force reduction targets, is what's leading to the shortfalls in mid-level ranks today.

 

[Haggis]

How dare you employ common sense and logic?  Next you'll suggest that the lack of recruiting in the 90s, to make force reduction targets, is what's leading to the shortfalls in mid-level ranks today.

Whoa... watch your tone, dapaterson.  You're slagging the Liberals here. FRP was their baby and, by God, it worked!!!

You should have a better outlook than that.  You know darned well that if you're not part of the solution then... well.... you'll be blamed for the problem.

 

[Greymatters]

How dare you employ common sense and logic?  Next you'll suggest that the lack of recruiting in the 90s, to make force reduction targets, is what's leading to the shortfalls in mid-level ranks today.

There are some out there who still think that was a good idea...    :

 

[a78jumper]

I suggest they are already facing a severe shortage.

Although the military has made great strides in improving their people skills and bennies, they are still lacking sorely in this area. Aside from a sense of duty and love for country why put up with the crappola? My days were numbered the day my career mangler told me the CF "owned me". Ignorant twit, my crime apparently was being too honest wrt my future plans beyond the age of 37.

 

[Col.Steiner]

Sorry about that last post, I was hopped up on NyQuil and out of control! Never post under the influence! I just saw it now and I cringed at the spelling errors and other mistakes, besides the tone!

 

[3VP Highlander]

The forces may be facing a shortage of pers.  However as an ex-Reg Force who started my career in the Reserves, I have now gone back to the Reserves.  I fully intend to serve as long as I can and contribute to the new unit that I have just joined.    I hope that the majority of those who take their release from the Reg Force over the next few years, will transfer over to the Reserves, so that we do keep the knowledge and experience that they have gained.

 

[dapaterson]

Roughly speaking, twice as many Reservists join the Reg F annually than Regs who join the Res (on the Army side at least).  And many Reg F folks who get out are doing so to double-dip, vice parading with a unit and sharing their knowledge and experience.

 

[hbear]

The forces may be facing a shortage of pers.  However as an ex-Reg Force who started my career in the Reserves, I have now gone back to the Reserves.  I fully intend to serve as long as I can and contribute to the new unit that I have just joined.    I hope that the majority of those who take their release from the Reg Force over the next few years, will transfer over to the Reserves, so that we do keep the knowledge and experience that they have gained.

I hear you on that one I just re-joind the reserves after a 9 year leave ;D  My plan is exactly the same as 3VP Highlander. I ran into some friends who are re-joining as well. Most need a premission slip from their "9'r higher" but all in all its going to be a good go.  See you in the field.

 

[krustyrl]

What is being done to retain those nearing TOS.?  Not much incentive to keep skilled tradesman in the Air Force, that I've heard, anyway.

 

[Cpl4Life]

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/maritimes/story.html?id=90cbbca3-923a-48f4-95d8-6d7ead6c4c9f&p=2
As anyone who has quit the forces and wished to rejoin, or those already in the reserves who want to go full time, this can prove to an extremely frustrating experience akin to banging ones head on a wall. It is far easier to com off the street and join than to rejoin. To wrap what I am saying in a nutshell, bullshit! I know from personal experience how long and how many flaming hoops I have had to endure since I decided a few years back that I wanted to rejoin. I wasn't taking the reserves too seriously but I did enjoy the experience immensely, unfortunately it just got in the way of my masters program, which I gave preference to. After a few years of maturing and a nice degree under my belt, I made an informed decision involving family and friends and most difficultly, my wife, to rejoin.

A close relative of mine was fully trained in his trade and it took over three years to get from reserve to reg.  I was under similiar circumstances and almost went with the mounties instead of the CF because they got my ass in depot way faster.  But I wanted CF so to the chagrin of my wife I stuck it out.  Good on you for sticking with it.  How long did it take you?  I've read one guy on here it took 7 years, now that is total b.s.

 

[Bigmac]

Keeping soldiers in uniform becoming a more challenging task: documents

Murray Brewster, THE CANADIAN PRESS


OTTAWA - Keeping Canadian soldiers in uniform is proving to be a difficult task as the country settles in for three more years of fighting in Afghanistan - one that is demanding more and more attention from top commanders, newly released documents reveal.

Briefing materials prepared for Defence Minister Peter MacKay show army attrition - the number of people choosing to retire or not renew their contracts - has reached 13 per cent, almost double the average for all three branches of the military.

A presentation given last fall by the army chief, Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie, shows the overall size of the land force declined by 1,846 soldiers between May 2005 and May 2007, despite the success in recruiting fresh troops.

The Powerpoint slide show and other briefing materials were obtained by The Canadian Press under access-to-information laws.

MacKay acknowledged attrition is growing, but downplayed its impact and insisted the Conservative government is taking steps to deal with the problem.

"I think that's always been an issue in a competitive job market," MacKay said at the recent launch of new television recruitment ads. "You're always going to see offers coming that cause men and women in the Forces to consider those options."

The effort to keep them in the ranks starts with motherhood-and-apple pie arguments, the minister suggested.

"One of the greatest inspirations is the patriotism when they don the uniform and the fact they are serving their fellow Canadians; the fact they are doing something that can only be described as exceptional, as historic, as timely, particularly when we see the challenges that exist globally today," MacKay said.

"I think that's going to help with retention as well."

But the appeal to the flag goes only so far.

The Forces has contended with the lure of a red-hot economy for over a decade, especially for high-skilled jobs such pilots and doctors. It has introduced a variety of incentives throughout the years, including re-signing bonuses.

Defence officials argue that the creeping attrition rate is a predictable consequence of the aging baby-boomer generation.

But records show that 30 is the average age in the army.

Federal budget documents show the overall attrition rate in 2007-08 was 7.9 per cent, slightly higher than the 6.3-6.4 per cent the Forces had become accustomed to over the last several years.

"In short, despite the success in recruiting over the past few years, the higher attrition rate has hindered the (Canadian Forces') growth," said the department's 2008-09 report on plans and priorities.

The documents identified key army positions that are already "critically below" preferred staffing levels, including artillery gunners, combat engineers, signal operators and mechanics.

National Defence is developing a retention survey this year to get at the causes of the tide of departures.

The seemingly never-ending stream of six-month rotations in and out of Afghanistan since 2002 has long been identified as a stress point for the army. Some soldiers currently deployed in Kandahar are on their third tour.

But war weariness isn't necessarily driving soldiers away.

Many veterans will tell you their experience in the war-torn country is so rewarding that they would happily return. It's the time spent in home bases back in Canada that seems the most taxing, especially for those serving with comrades or commanders who've never seen combat.

"They'll tell me to do something one way, when I know from my own experience that it's better done another way," said one serving non-commissioned officer, who asked not to be named.

"They want to do it by the book when the book needs to changed. . . . It's frustrating."

Is the extension of the mission in Afghanistan to blame? That is subjective and varies from person to person.

Are baby boomers retiring? Absolutely, but most have served their time and were planning to retire anyway.  I am at the tail end of the baby boomers and I see retirement looming in the not to distant future. Some are tempted by civilian job offers and why not? If you can earn a good civilian salary on top of your military pension why wouldn't you be lured away? That sure is my ultimate plan and I know I am not alone!

The real problem as I see it is not only recruiting but retaining younger CF members especially those in middle management positions. If we lose the middle there is nobody to train the new pers and nobody to groom into the higher positions as baby boomers retire.

Although I hate surveys, maybe it will shed some light on how to fix the problem before it becomes worse in the next 5-10 years.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Considering our last big recruiting surge was in the early to mid-1980s, this is just the 25 year point for that generation.  Without the demographic stats for various groups by age/years of service, it's hard to say if the current increase in releases is really statistically significant overall, or if it is significant for certain groups.

 

[EW]

Considering our last big recruiting surge was in the early to mid-1980s, this is just the 25 year point for that generation.  Without the demographic stats for various groups by age/years of service, it's hard to say if the current increase in releases is really statistically significant overall, or if it is significant for certain groups.

Exactly!  I joined during that time frame - following the '86 white paper.  When you consider that this was not followed by another surge for decades, and the impact of the FRP in the early nineties, a large number of people have come to the end of their contract, and the system just doesn't have as many people coming up behind them to fill in the holes.  Combined with the pressures of operations in Afghanistan, I would think that the temporary blip of higher releases/retirements as people from the last big surge come to the end of their contract, has had a more pronounced impact than past years.  This would surely skew any statistics.  This is all conjecture of course - and I look forward to their survey results.