FMS
- Thread starter TN2IC
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 210
all i know is that im going up to borden in may to get trained up on it.
Im still trying to figure out the old one right now!!
but from what ive heard the new one sounds pretty good.
Im still trying to figure out the old one right now!!
but from what ive heard the new one sounds pretty good.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 110
the old ones not hard, i learned it on my QL5, and they went over the new one 2, its goin to be a lot more confusing then the old one....
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Depending on where you are posted, will depend when the new web based FMS get to you. Out here in LFWA/ASG, I believe we are the last one due to get it (sometime in Dec 06 if there is no difficulties). It will be transitioned across the country thru the year. Check the FMS site that is linked to the TM5 site on the Intranet or call their help desk.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 210
armyboytncoy said:
yeah.... QL5 would be nice to have.......
im kinda learning via OJT and a user manual......
though thankfully youre right.. its not hard to pick up...
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 110
I have heard the on the new FMS. That you will need to keep a 500 km / hrs a year on your qualified vehs. That is the most stupid thing I have heard. I have 30 vehs on my 404's. You dont always get on the equipment that much time every year. So You do the math Oh I forgot you are 935's you can not do the math.
- Reaction score
- 5,093
- Points
- 1,060
FEEOP042 said:
.........or 500kms to hold your troop lift qualification on the ML. How many Reservists can do that? Hell, how many Regs can do that. More stupid empire building by the Master Driver MSE. Rules are meant to be established to make things more effective and stream lined, not ineffective and archaic. Pretty soon no one will be able to turn a wheel because some one, somewhere, up there, thought they had a good idea, got promoted and didn't get challenged on it. Where are the checks and balances and the people that are supposed to vette these ideas before they're implemented?
" No sorry General, we won't be there. No one can drive today"
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 210
recceguy said:
would you want your son or daughter riding on a school bus being driven by a man who only drove it once a year??
and by the way, check your facts...... its been like that for a little while now.... not just with the new FMS..... also in case you havent noticed, here in ontario especially, the roadways are becoming increasingly dangerous with less and less emphasis being put on driver training and safety.... one of the reasons why in 31 Bde, we require all drivers to have a G2 lic before they can drive without supervision... if the army is liable 100% does it make sense to put some 17 year old without a G1 under the care and control of an air/hydraulic truck with a curb weight of roughly 3000kgs empty? think about what an out of control MLVW could do you your POMV while your wife is driving in it..... not a pleasant thought is it..... MSE is being driven on canadian roads alot more then it is going out Baja-ing in the trg area, or crusing around Af-Stan, (and even there driver safety is still a big issue according to a co-worker who is over there now)
also think about the req for troop lift. why does every cbt arms type need it? when we have reserve mse-ops and reserve svc bn's. and its not hard for a reservist who needs the milage to get it... one weekend Ex from hamilton to meaford will give a troopie his req Km's and being a PRes MSE-Op if I were to show up for every ex, and drive every ex, its a safe bet i could get up to 2500kms a year ideally.... and if you get 500kms on ML then youre also Qual-ed for lesser vehs ie LSVW Troop lift. or in our case HLVW to MLVW.
having 8 million quals on your 404's isnt required... you may have 40 quals, but how many of those vehicles are out of service? how many of those are you current on? the same reason soldiers train and do the same thing a million times in the field is to stay sharp and up to date. driving a vehicle is no exception... if you dont use it, you loose it.... now staff cars and similar commercial pattern vehs are one thing, but the MLVW and commcercial equivalents are not small... nor are they something I would want an inexperianced driver operating....
remember, we have truckers, medics, cooks, supply techs, mat techs, traffic techs, MP's, EME, LOG, SIGs Etc..... so that you Cbt Arms types can go out there and do your job, without having to worry about how youre going to be supported.....
the big reason PRes Cbt Arms dont see a need for CSS and CS is because they are almost always self sufficient on all weekend Ex's, but even in the PRes Cbt Arm Units there are always people working in the Support trades... even if theyre infantry.... ie the AsH of C have an 031 as their Tn NCO, and im willing to bet that they would have a hell of a time getting their Ex's off the ground if it wernt for the logistical support guys....
and im still of the mentality that we be soldiers first.... but some soldiers are going to be better at it then others.....
-Rant off....
- Reaction score
- 25
- Points
- 430
Well, I guess your kids will have to walk. Someone has to drive the bus. Everyone has a 'first time ever' to drive a vehicle.Cpl Thompson said:
If the 17 year old has been on a recognized Crse to drive the vehicle and received the Qualification and has it on his/her 404's, then they should be able to drive that vehicle. By the way, they also have to take a week long 'Air Brake Crse' to drive a HLVW and LAV III, so they have much more experience and knowledge than most on the road. I would be more scared to drive with your wife.Cpl Thompson said:
:Cpl Thompson said:
Why? Because they have to be able to drive Troops at a seconds notice. They can not put in a request to some Reserve Circus Bn and wait for several weeks when some 17 year old kid or 55 year old Reservist has some time off to come and drive them somewhere. Shake your head.Where are they going to get the experience, if they don't have it on their 404's after taking the Crses. Take it off their 404's and they can't drive, therefore, they will never get the experience should the opportunity show itself. They need to drive to keep up their skills as drivers. It doesn't matter what they drive, in order to keep their "Driver Skills'. If you take away their 404 Qualifications, they will loose their skills.Cpl Thompson said:
And we have Cbt Arms pers who drive specialized vehicles that those others don't.Cpl Thompson said:
Cpl Thompson said:
And rightfully so. The Cbt Arms are pretty well self-sufficient. They can move themselves when they need to. At other times, when required, they will rely on others.
Cpl Thompson
You post was like a doddering old Grandmother. You really have missed the point, and show a great lack of knowledge in the workings of the CF.
Sorry that this post took so long, but Spell Check took forever with your post.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 210
Well, that's what I get for posting with minimal sleep late at night....
allow me to clarify....
with the bus analogy, yes George everyone does have to have a first time ever, but should that first time be when it counts, or should the driver have a few dry runs first to get the feel of it? as i stated before, there is a difference between operational requirements, and operating within Canada on administrative duties.
I'm not sure if you are aware, but a lot of the courses in the reserves do NOT teach the vehicle properly. In 31 Bde it seems in a lot of cases that the course is designed for an indoctrination, and then the member is to go back to his home unit, and continue to drive there and get qualified. So although in a perfect world, these courses Should teach us all we need to know, in reality they do not always do so. and George, I am aware of the training required to Drive HLVW. but there is a difference between a week long air brakes course for HL/LAV3 and a few hours of class time for the MLVW system. most driver wheel courses in the Pres are of the "Every other weekend" variety, if were lucky we can get a good ratio of instructors to student, but if were not, then sometimes it ends up that we hammer people through entirely too fast with the bare bones minimal training. Too Often they are sent back to their home unit and then just given the qualification automatically because the unit wants them to be able to drive....
Is it really necessary for a reserve infantry unit to have all 250-300 persons qualified troop lift? personally I don't think so...
It doesn't take several weeks.... if its urgent, then that is why there are Tn NCO's and Troop lift qualified soldiers in those units who can do that. for Ex's where they are planned well in advance, we can provide the service to them. In many cases we have a number of troops who are on a sort of short notice standby who can come in at a moments notice to do these tasking's as well... (I'm sure you'll shoot holes in that point as well, but hey, such is life...)
With all due respect George you sound as if you don't see a need for Support Trades. I Hope I am mis-interpreting you because I cant understand how someone who has the time in you do, would not understand the role Logistics plays in an Army's organization. Obviously you have a great deal more experience in the Reg Force Combat Arms then I do, though I am wondering what experience you have with the Pres (PM me if you would prefer)
My Experience comes from the Pres only, and the issues we face there, which is essentially that we use the 2nd rate equipment, have a fraction of the time to do all the training, and teaching that we are expected to do, and don't always have the manpower to teach or train to the level we would like to... am I bitter, no. I understand that there is a much greater need for the Reg Force to have these things readily available to them. I would just like to try and find a happy medium I guess... where we can get troops trained, and qualified on what they need to do their job, and as well keep them current so that they can SAFELY operate MSE.
Regards
Josh
My Apologies for the lack of spell check on my last. It should be easier for you to repsond to this one.
allow me to clarify....
with the bus analogy, yes George everyone does have to have a first time ever, but should that first time be when it counts, or should the driver have a few dry runs first to get the feel of it? as i stated before, there is a difference between operational requirements, and operating within Canada on administrative duties.
I'm not sure if you are aware, but a lot of the courses in the reserves do NOT teach the vehicle properly. In 31 Bde it seems in a lot of cases that the course is designed for an indoctrination, and then the member is to go back to his home unit, and continue to drive there and get qualified. So although in a perfect world, these courses Should teach us all we need to know, in reality they do not always do so. and George, I am aware of the training required to Drive HLVW. but there is a difference between a week long air brakes course for HL/LAV3 and a few hours of class time for the MLVW system. most driver wheel courses in the Pres are of the "Every other weekend" variety, if were lucky we can get a good ratio of instructors to student, but if were not, then sometimes it ends up that we hammer people through entirely too fast with the bare bones minimal training. Too Often they are sent back to their home unit and then just given the qualification automatically because the unit wants them to be able to drive....
Is it really necessary for a reserve infantry unit to have all 250-300 persons qualified troop lift? personally I don't think so...
It doesn't take several weeks.... if its urgent, then that is why there are Tn NCO's and Troop lift qualified soldiers in those units who can do that. for Ex's where they are planned well in advance, we can provide the service to them. In many cases we have a number of troops who are on a sort of short notice standby who can come in at a moments notice to do these tasking's as well... (I'm sure you'll shoot holes in that point as well, but hey, such is life...)
Well I will agree with certain points on this one as well... Drivers in the CF regardless of trade should be given the opportunity to stay current on existing qualifications, but it should be reasonable... not everyone will be able to be qualified Everything... my personal opinion is that there should be a system in place where, if you need to drive it, you get and stay qualified on the vehicle. if you don't need it, then you wont get it.... I've seen too many people try to use 404's like its a p**sing contest where the troop with the most quals wins. how usefull are you if you're qualified 30 vehicle but only remember how to operate 15 of them? I stand by my previous statement of "if you don't use it you loose it" if you haven't driven a vehicle in 5 years then you should not be able to just hop in and go right away, unless there is an immediate or emergency need for you to do so. And I hardly think that is being unreasonable...
My Apologies, I did forget about them.... however, should all the infantry types be qualified on the same vehs as well? no. because they don't need them...
Like now when they're overseas, and the trucks are constantly resupplying them in the Fob's
With all due respect George you sound as if you don't see a need for Support Trades. I Hope I am mis-interpreting you because I cant understand how someone who has the time in you do, would not understand the role Logistics plays in an Army's organization. Obviously you have a great deal more experience in the Reg Force Combat Arms then I do, though I am wondering what experience you have with the Pres (PM me if you would prefer)
My Experience comes from the Pres only, and the issues we face there, which is essentially that we use the 2nd rate equipment, have a fraction of the time to do all the training, and teaching that we are expected to do, and don't always have the manpower to teach or train to the level we would like to... am I bitter, no. I understand that there is a much greater need for the Reg Force to have these things readily available to them. I would just like to try and find a happy medium I guess... where we can get troops trained, and qualified on what they need to do their job, and as well keep them current so that they can SAFELY operate MSE.
Regards
Josh
My Apologies for the lack of spell check on my last. It should be easier for you to repsond to this one.
Ex Ranger Instructor
Full Member
- Reaction score
- 48
- Points
- 330
Cpl Thompson said:
A lot of courses don't teach things properly, so get used to it. The army still has to do business, and the Tn world should, IMHO, find a solution that doesn't involve eliminating our ability to have non-trade drivers drive without restriction. If standards are not being upheld, in your opinion, then do something about it through your chain of command and/or area standards cell. Perhaps it would make you feel better to know that I have acted as Crse WO for 74 Comm Gp dvr wh crses, and that I have regularly failed candidates when they did not meet the grade.
500 Km/80KpH = 6.25 Hours. That's at least one full day (per vehicle) out of the training schedule/budget for every veh that a troop needs to qualify on. Given that formula, we may be able to keep some pers current during normal unit trg, but will almost certainly have to conduct extra trg to keep the rest current. Assume that a guy needs to be qualified on ML, LS, and G-Wagon and/or MILCOTS. That isn't an unreasonable set of veh quals, but it represents three or four full days spent per man on jumping through administrative hoops just to ensure that he can drive when he needs to. As recceguy pointed out, that is a significant time investment for the Reg Force, not to mention the Res F, who may or may not be able to keep up. Non-trade drivers may therefore end up losing their essential quals because the CF can't afford the time or money to keep them current according to what seems to me to be an artificial and arbitrary standard. I hope it doesn't keep you up at night, but I've been teaching people to drive every year since 2001, and I haven't personally sat behind the wheel of an LS or ML since I got my third two years ago. Nonetheless, none of my now-ex students have yet had an accident in any of the vehs I qualified them on, and I certainly haven't either, despite not having come close to 500Km/annually. Even in 2001, I doubt that I got 500Km as a MCpl, and the guys that I taught that year have also managed to avoid smashing anything just yet.
In short, unless you can promise me that there is a secret Bn filled with MSE Ops who are ready to deploy anywhere, anytime, at a minute's notice and without pay, then I think you had better re-think your claim that there isn't a serious need for non-trade drivers within the CF.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 210
well i don't recall ever saying that there was a need for non trade drivers in the CF. I suppose I made the mistake of assuming that such non-trade drivers would be driving said vehicles enough on ex and what not to accumulate the required Kms. once I get back to my unit lines and off course I will attempt to find the Reference in the Drivers Regs or Transport Manual stating that a driver must get 500 kms every year to be current.... since to my understanding the 500kms may only apply to MSE-Ops, but is it really such a bad thing to have a minimum standard for troop lift at the very least? in the civilian if someone is driving a bus they require special training and extra time behind the wheel before they may transport people, and they are required to be tested annually if i am correct. why is this such a problem in the military? and once again i will try to re-enforce the difference between a reserve exercise and an operational requirement. since they are very different.
anyways, I don't currently have access to the info that could possibly clear things up, so perhaps we can all wait out for a bit longer unless someone else already has it with reference numbers please. no sense in all of us arguing over rumours....
Lastly, on a personal note, I am not trying to build empires here, I just want to ensure maximum safety in training. although tragically it does happen, troops should not be killed on training Ex's, especially if its a preventable incident.
I will be away from the Computer for the next week or so, and as such i will not be able to respond until then. so if you're wondering why I'm not talking back, that's the reason.
anyways, I don't currently have access to the info that could possibly clear things up, so perhaps we can all wait out for a bit longer unless someone else already has it with reference numbers please. no sense in all of us arguing over rumours....
Lastly, on a personal note, I am not trying to build empires here, I just want to ensure maximum safety in training. although tragically it does happen, troops should not be killed on training Ex's, especially if its a preventable incident.
I will be away from the Computer for the next week or so, and as such i will not be able to respond until then. so if you're wondering why I'm not talking back, that's the reason.
- Reaction score
- 5,093
- Points
- 1,060
Not until we get an answer on the 500km limit!!
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 210
I will post on it tomorrow morning once i can get access to the DIN, and the 158(5) Transport Manual....
from what i did read in some cases it requires a certain amount of milage, and in other cases all depending on the veh, there are other checks you must perform...... I will put all the details i can here tomorrow.
from what i did read in some cases it requires a certain amount of milage, and in other cases all depending on the veh, there are other checks you must perform...... I will put all the details i can here tomorrow.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
It is one of the Transport Directive within the 158(5) on Validation. Does not really kick in until month 13. Examples 500 km/yr on SMP, 1000 km/year on tractor trailer and bus and so many hrs on different pieces of heavy equip per year. This Validation applies to ALL driver User or MSE Ops.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 210
Its in the 158(5) Transport Manual under Transport Directive 554 (ALM-158-005/AG-001 TD 554)
if you have DIN Access you can view it here. http://lognet.dwan.dnd.ca/dlogsvs/tn/tn3/manual/a-lm-158-005_ag-001/index_e.htm
if you have DIN Access you can view it here. http://lognet.dwan.dnd.ca/dlogsvs/tn/tn3/manual/a-lm-158-005_ag-001/index_e.htm
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 210
With Pleasure... but only if it gets me back in behind the wheel of something large and green
Similar threads
