Fast track for Immigration by joining the CF

[mover1]

So I read in the news yesterday that the military is trying (once again) to recruit visible minorities into the CF to give a truer picture of the Canadian demographic. I also saw on the national that the immigration people are giving year long work visas to any out of foreign student who studies and graduated from a university in Canada, as long as they resided in  Toronto , Vancouver,and Montreal. Or they could have a two year work Visa if they lived outside those areas.
     
        So here is my thought.

        Why don't we promise to get these people a Canadian citizenship upon joining the military for a set engagement of 3-4 years.

        The benefits of this to the CF would be we would get an educated recruits with a second language ability and would be more in a mindset to understand some of the cultures we are exposing ourselves to in the hot spots of the world.

        The PR would be priceless. If immigrant X comes to the country does 3 years in the military. And then gets out and goes out into society on a good note. Then that person will support the military in the future. And if we start recruiting people that are on a high turn around rate then this will prevent the forces from becoming stagnant.

          It would be a win win for the Canadian Government, The CF and the individuals that choose to enroll.

Just a thought. any comments?

 

[Redeye]

I don't like the idea without a great deal of security background checks being in place to ensure we're actually recruiting people who want to serve this country.  The last thing you want is an army full of people who are doing it only to get something out of it their service - meaning their citizenship card just for a few years' work... do you think they'll make good soldiers?  Some, perhaps, but I doubt a lot of them will be motivated to do anything above the bare minimum.

 

[mover1]

I don't like the idea without a great deal of security background checks being in place to ensure we're actually recruiting people who want to serve this country.   The last thing you want is an army full of people who are doing it only to get something out of it their service - meaning their citizenship card just for a few years' work... do you think they'll make good soldiers?   Some, perhaps, but I doubt a lot of them will be motivated to do anything above the bare minimum.

Your right. we just blindly let a lot of people in the country. They would all make bad soldiers. What was I thinking. After all if they are not white and English or french speaking they are all bad, lazy and are self serving.

NOT

 

[Gramps]

There are already background checks for new immigrants in this country and further checks for anyone joining the military. For someone to have extra checks done based on Nationality is not practical and seems to lean towards that "R" word that people don't like me to use. Besides to think that there are no people in the forces right now who have questionable pasts or to think that some people in the forces are not involved in questionable behavior is naive. A persons nationality does not make them a suspect of anything.

 

[JBP]

Posted by: Gramps
Insert Quote
There are already background checks for new immigrants in this country and further checks for anyone joining the military. For someone to have extra checks done based on Nationality is not practical and seems to lean towards that "R" word that people don't like me to use. Besides to think that there are no people in the forces right now who have questionable pasts or to think that some people in the forces are not involved in questionable behavior is naive. A persons nationality does not make them a suspect of anything.

Although I agree with you, would you say the same think about a person of North Korean blood? Or, say, Bosnian or Croatian? How about Rwandan or Burundi? Better yet, Sudan, Iraqi, and many other middle eastern nations. If we open the floodgates to anyone, we'll be exposing our defense forces to "moles" more easily, and/or direct terrorist attacks. Out of Al-Quada's top enemies, we were listed as 4rth or 5th I think, and we're the only one's who've NOT been hit yet. Everyone else has above the list and below us... That was quoted on here by someone else few months back. It's not IF, it's WHEN. Tamil Tigers? Al-Queda(sp?), any other terrorist organization who has something to gain...

I do believe it's a great idea, and would have many benefits and the likelyhood of a terrorist action happening because of it is low, it could happen.

Seriously think about the idea that you could be sleeping in a "hooch-hotel" with some guy who is fanatically committed to suicide bombing himself and your section to pieces in the middle of the night, or running around and slitting your throats in your sleep with a bayonette/gerber!!!

Maybe slightly paranoid, but just food for thought...

PS> I thought certain countries/nationalities were already on a "watch list" if they apply... They have to go through a much more extensive background check no?

 

[mover1]

R031 Pte Joe you are a bit paranoid. What about an Engineer or the Wpns Tech with ties to the H.A. Or some pimp getting into the CIC staff to recruit some young blood. I thing the chances that you are going to get your a suicide bomber to kill you or your section while on some weekend get-away are slim. 99.999% of people are honest and hard working. You center on the bad and come up with unrealistic barriers. Can you tell a North Korean from a South Korean? Your fears are unjustified and baised on fear.
I take it by your post and picking out different nationalities you do not like and mistrust ethnic's. Have you ever met and Iraqi? A Rawandan?
In my travels they are all people. and should be treated as such.

 

[Gramps]

R031 Pte Joe

That has to be one of the most paranoid and ridiculous statements. Have you ever met anyone from any of the countries you had listed? I have and I will tell you one thing, to make assumptions about people based on their country of origin and their ethnic or religious background is just plain RACIST!! and I will not apologise for using that word. I have done a fair amount of travelling both with work and as a tourist, I have met people from around the globe, and I have yet to meet a suicide bomber or a hardline communist heathen who wants to blow me up because of my nationality.

 

[Redeye]

Whoa, whoa...  I never said anything about singling out applicants from any particular nation or ethnic origin, nor did I mention race anywhere!  I also did not say that all immigrants would make poor soldiers.  Watch your arcs more closely.  The fact is that the military personnel selection process has to be designed to ensure that those who enter the CF are motivated to become effective soldiers, sailors, or airmen who are committed to the purpose and ethos of the CF - not individuals who are looking to join to get to the front of the immigration line, get their tickets punched, and leave.

There are some people who would benefit from a program such as this, but I don't really see it being a productive program - the time it takes to conduct all the background checks for both the CF and CIC (that's Citizenship and Immigration Canada) is long enough that I can't really see any benefit to an immigrant in terms of time saved.

 

[mover1]

Well they are going to be here for three to four years finishing a university degree first. So the checks could be done then.
And the application process would hopefully weed out the ticket punchers.

 

[Gramps]

And there are no people in the forces right now who are just here to get their ticket punched? I have seen and worked for many "Ticket Punchers" and they were all born in Canada.

 

[Britney Spears]

I agree with Redeye, and I'm an immigrant myself. The aim of any recruitment campaign should be to produce good soldiers, any other objective (" to better reflect Canada's demographic profile", etc) can only mean bad things.

Also, one should keep in mind that there are good social/cultural reasons why immigrants fron third world nations do not join the CF in large numbers. Very few third world nations have professional armies that command the same kind of standing in society as Canada/US/UK.  Even amongst educated subsects of the immigrant population, you are likely to find very few prospective recruits. There's definitly a cultural gap which will be very difficult to bridge.

Bottom line is that an immigrant who has an interest in pursuing a CF career most likely has a good idea of what they are getting themselves into already, and will do so without any kind of special targeted recruiting effort. The best thing we should be doing is streamlining to application proccess. If you native Canadians think the recruiting system is broken, well you didn't have to go through an additional 3-6 month security clearance proccess.

 

[Redeye]

And there are no people in the forces right now who are just here to get their ticket punched? I have seen and worked for many "Ticket Punchers" and they were all born in Canada.

We all have, that's true.  The selection process is far from perfect, no one, immigrant or otherwise, should be able to join for that reason.

mover1, you are referring, then, to making this offer to foreign students who are here as a means of getting permanent residence and eventually citizenship in Canada?  That might be a means of filling some skilled trandes, and would mean that the applicants would have some adaptation to Canadian life.  That's not such a bad idea.  That's more context than you gave in your original post.

The brass apparently keep an eye on this webite, maybe they'll agree with you. Watch and shoot.

 

[Island Ryhno]

I think enticing someone into our forces just so they can immigrate is a bad idea. Sure there are "Ticket Punchers" everywhere, it's a fact of life but when they joined it was voluntarily. I believe Mover1 that you are insinuating that if you don't do the military time then you can't get in the country (please correct me if I'm wrong) and that wouldn't work, forcing people to choose the forces would make for some very disgruntled people. Also about the immigration stuff, we like to believe that we have these strenuous background checks etc, has any of you heard of the Khadrs? Our country is wide open to immigrants and it's good and bad, we get lots of people who end up being doctors or lawyers or business owners or whatever and contribute greatly to this country. However it is inevitable that if you open the doors to the military there will be some fanatics come through, the numbers would just be against us. And however small a number it might be, the result would be devastating to the forces and the country. To the insinuation that there is some good in everyone, well I haven't met everyone.

 

[mover1]

Redeye thats exactly what I was aiming for. The last nights story on the national gave that exact slant. Think of new citizen who immedeately gives something back to his new country. It would be something that more Canadians would give back in their entire lifetimes. I belive it would be a Win Win situation. Plus it would expose the new immigrants to a wider cross section of canadian society.

 

[48Highlander]

This discussion's rather pointless.  Right now you need to be a citizen in order to join the military.  That's a security regulation that was only implemented a few years ago; before that landed immigrants were allowed to join.  In other words, if the CF recently implemented a regulation that says not even landed immigrants are allowed to join, how likely are the higher ups to suddenly do a 180 and let in foreign nationals without even that much status?  It's not gonna happen.  Theorize all you like, but there's absolutely no way it'll be done, and I think the security concerns brought up by Joe and Redeye are a good reason not to let it happen.

 

[Recce41]

We have too many loosers now, that join the military for an free ride. When I applied to join the British Army, even though my mother was English. Father served with the British Army for a time. I have an uncle who was a Col with the British Army, and would sign for me. I had to WORK for 3 months in England, just to apply.
Now, we have "well I like Canada and I want stay", Join the Military and we will let you, that easy. BS.

 

[mover1]

be a Canadian citizen;
Citizens of another country who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment when the CF has need of their skill, when the position cannot be filled by a Canadian citizen, and if the national interest would not be prejudiced. However, only under exceptional circumstances will authority be granted to enrol a citizen of another country.


Rules can be changed look at the fitness standard

 

[48Highlander]

Rules can be changed look at the fitness standard

Ugh.  Yeah, they can change, but that's one that never should have.  And this is another.  Being in the Canadian military is a privilidge in and of itself, it should never be a means to an end.  You want to boost recruiting?  Give out pamphlets and videos as part of an immigration package.  That's about as far as it should go.

 

[mover1]

Your right. When my great-grandfather moved here in 1897 he should have never been given the privilege to join the Canadian Army in the first world war. He was never a citizen of this country but he fought its wars. We should at least have a retainer on people blood lines before they join. maybe by about one or two generations should be born here to ensure they are truly Canadian.

Get real.

 

[48Highlander]

I don't know what sort of object you've got wedged in your nether-region, but take a breath and relax.   I never suggested that immigrants shouldn't be allowed to join.   I stated that joining the CF should not be a means to an end.   If they wish to have a career in the military, great.   If they want to serve out of loyalty to the country that took them in, even better.   But letting immigrants join is TOTALY different from giving people citizenship for serving.   Landed immigrants can ALREADY get citizenship:   all they have to do is wait 3 years and pass a test.   So the only ones taking your offer would be who?   People either living overseas, or those here on a visitors/students/workers visa.   Now, why in the hell would you want people in the military who only joined because you told them it was a way to get or stay in the country?   I'm sure you'll get lots of recruits that way; the ones who don't qualify to live here any other way.   If immigration turned them away, there's probably a good reason for it.   Why should we take 'em?

And before you start playing the poor-little-immigrant card again, I wasn't born in Canada either.  I got my citizenship legitemately and joined the military because it's something I knew I'd enjoy, and because I wanted to do something for the nation that gave me a chance to do something with my life.  Would I have joined if they had offered me a chance to earn my citizenship that way?  Sure, but I deffinitely wouldn't have felt any sense of loyalty, nor would I have stayed in for more than the bare minimum of time.