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F-22 or F-35

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guns_and_roses

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Would the Raptor be a better choice then the lightning for Canada? There both very capable aircraft, but what would Canada benefit most from? What are the pros and cons of each aircraft? Topic is to debate what Canada should buy to replace the Hornet.
 
The Raptor is an air superiority fighter, but like the F-15 may morph into a strike fighter but the F-35 is primarily a strike aircraft so they really fill seperate roles.
 
On the topic of F22s & CAS:

F-22 Prepped For CAS

October 1, 2007: The U.S. Air Force is getting its new F-22 stealth  fighter ready for service in Iraq and Afghanistan, even though air force generals insist this is not likely to happen. Last month, an F-22  successfully dropped its first SDB (small diameter bomb). This is a  completely new smart bomb design, weighing only 250 pound (PHOTO). This weapon  has a shape that?s more like that of a missile than a bomb (70 inches  long, 190 millimeters in diameter), with the guidance system built in.

The smaller blast from the SDB is still pretty substantial (51 pounds  of explosives). A new SDB design has a Focused Lethality Munition  (FLM) warhead, which reduces the number of metal fragments created  when the bomb explodes, and increases the blast effect. This is meant  to reduce casualties to nearby civilians.

An F-22 can carry eight SDBs in its internal bomb bays, in addition to  four air-to-air missiles. But why send F-22 into Iraq and Afghanistan?  There are several reasons. One is combat experience. OK, there are  plenty of A-10s, F-16s and F-18s available to drop smart bombs, so why  use an F-22? Because the F-22 has not been in a combat zone yet, and  you need to see how the aircraft reacts to the stresses and conditions  only found in a combat zone. But there are other reasons as well. Iraq  is right next to Syria and Iran, two countries with lots of Russian  air defense radars that F-22s can play with. Afghanistan also has Iran  as a neighbor, as well as a small border with China. Letting those  countries get a look at the F-22 also has some psychological impact.

Moreover, lacking an air-to-air opponent, dropping smart bombs for ground troops might be the only work F-22s will get for a while. This  CAS (Close Air Support) mission is all the air force has been doing  for the past four years. Might as well get the F-22 in shape for it.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20071001.aspx
 
Current US policy is that it will not export the F-22

I guess that part of your debate is closed for now.


Braveheart......

Read this first :


http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/44917.0.html
 
tomahawk6 said:
All it takes is money. ;D
It'll take more then money for us to get our hands on a Raptor.

Perhaps if you get another Clinton in office.... but then of course, the Chinese will have first dibs.
 
Let's not forget that F-22s are running at about $200M a piece right now. Even with the recent favorable trend in exchange rates I could hardly see Canada committing that kind of money for anything to do with combat.
 
If Raptors were dedicated to NORAD Canada would have as good a chance to acquire the aircraft as any US ally, I'd like to see a split buy of F-22's and F-35B STOVL to replace CF-18's  but it's unlikely to happen.
 
ringo said:
If Raptors were dedicated to NORAD Canada would have as good a chance to acquire the aircraft as any US ally,

Indeed we have as good a chance as any US ally  ;D

......they wont export it to anyone.
 
niceasdrhuxtable said:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-cost.htm
That is rather misleading as it rolls all of the fixed R&D cost into the reduced order (which is starting to look like it will be increased with the grounding of the F15s): unit cost is more like <$100MM.
 
CDN Aviator said:
Indeed we have as good a chance as any US ally  ;D

......they wont export it to anyone.

There has been some discussion of the Japanese acquiring a (less capable) export version ... but as I think you are suggesting, it has more to do with politics than anything else.

A Lockheed Martin official heavily involved in the Raptor program told ITAF Feb. 14 that a proposal to alter course and sell the Raptor to Japan is working its way through the Air Force. Lockheed is leading development and production work on the service's newest fighter. ... Air Combat Command chief Gen. Ronald Keys told ITAF Feb. 2 after his remarks at a conference in Lake Buena Vista, FL, that service officials are debating the notion of putting the F-22A on the international market.

...

“It's hard to envision the F-22A with its current capabilities being exported, even to our closest allies. Its capabilities would almost certainly have to be ‘watered down' for export,” according to Christopher Bolkcom, an analyst at the Congressional Research Service in Washington.
http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,88282,00.html

IMHO, the only chance you'll see a CF pilot in an F22 is on exchange (and even that is a maybe).
 
We are only one election away from becoming the USA advisary, so NO, they will not sell us F22's.  The F35 is for the export market, and at $40 million each we may see 100.
 
peaches said:
We are only one election away from becoming the USA advisary, so NO, they will not sell us F22's.  The F35 is for the export market, and at $40 million each we may see 100.

If Hillier is CDS I am not sure he would envision his military, small smart, with such a high number of expensive aircraft.
 
100 is not a high number, 1000 is!!  We have seen that 80 CF18s is not enough, we are having trouble sustaining a NORAD & CAS commitment with only 80 jets, keeping in mind a larger number of them belong to the tarining squadron and are not avail for ops.  If we decided with the F-35 to do all our OT training in the USA, and made 410 another Ops squadron, then yes, 80 jets would do.....
 
peaches said:
We are only one election away from becoming the USA advisary, so NO, they will not sell us F22's.  The F35 is for the export market, and at $40 million each we may see 100.

source?

In my searching I have found $37 million as the inital projected unt cost. Real cost as of 2005 had driven the projected cost to $100 million per unit.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-35-program.htm


Just to note on the F-22 its per unit cost is falling like a rock and is exected to be below $75 million by the time #100 is produced and continue to fall after that point.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/march2003/0303FA22.asp
 
prom said:
is exected to be below $75 million by the time #100 is produced

That article is 4 1/2 years old: #100 has already been delivered ... unit cost is $97MM, per the globalsecurity link below.
 
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