Engr JNBCD roll? (Formerly: Joint Engineer Support Regiment?)

[McG]

Canada should form a Joint Engineer Regiment (or Joint Engineer Support Regiment) through the amalgamation of 1 Engineer Support Unit, 4 Engineer Support Regiment, and the CFJNBCD Coy.   The JER (or JESR) would be located in Moncton (where 1 ESU currently is), in Gagetown (where 4 ESR currently is), or in Kingston (with most other elements of the JOG).   The ideal place would be in Gagetown where the unit would be best situated to take over some of 4 ESR's current responsibilities.

Early in the transformation process (before â Å“transformationâ ? was even a buzzword), the army identified that it did not have a need for 4 ESR.   It was generally expected that 4 ESR and 1 CEU would merge to form an engineer unit for the JOG.   However, when the day came only 1 CEU converted to 1 ESU under the JOG.   Today several needs for 4 ESR have been identified, however all of those needs could still be met through a JESR.

4 ESR is expected to support training at CFSME, but if the JESR were located in Gagetown it could seamlessly take this task from 4 ESR.   4 ESR fills a surge capacity for LFC engineers, but this too could be taken by a JESR.   4 ESR is also home to some unique capabilities (ILDS, flails) that could be taken over by a JESR.  

The only 4 ESR task that would not go to a JESR would be to support 2 RCR.   Instead, a fd sqn would be permanently placed in 2 RCR and 2 CER would be tasked with generating mission specific support troops.   The Commandant of CFSME would become responsible for validating the fd sqn prior to level 5 training.    

This proposal would see one national level engineer unit to support all environments (and not two national level engineer units separated by about 2 hours of highway).   The idea still is not fleshed out, but what do you think so far?

 

[McG]

Why include JNBCD Coy in this?

Many elements of JNBCD are an engr task.   While the NBCD Coy is concerned with more than just the engr aspects, this move would give it a home as part of a unit.   Arguably, it is the least critical element in the formation of a JESR.

A move to NB would take them from being a short road move to major centers to a long road move or flight.

This would be another factor in favour of Kingston as the home to a JESR

 

[043]

Canada should form a Joint Engineer Regiment (or Joint Engineer Support Regiment) through the amalgamation of 1 Engineer Support Unit, 4 Engineer Support Regiment, and the CFJNBCD Coy.   The JER (or JESR) would be located in Moncton (where 1 ESU currently is), in Gagetown (where 4 ESR currently is), or in Kingston (with most other elements of the JOG).   The ideal place would be in Gagetown where the unit would be best situated to take over some of 4 ESR's current responsibilities.

Early in the transformation process (before â Å“transformationâ ? was even a buzzword), the army identified that it did not have a need for 4 ESR.   It was generally expected that 4 ESR and 1 CEU would merge to form an engineer unit for the JOG.   However, when the day came only 1 CEU converted to 1 ESU under the JOG.   Today several needs for 4 ESR have been identified, however all of those needs could still be met through a JESR.

4 ESR is expected to support training at CFSME, but if the JESR were located in Gagetown it could seamlessly take this task from 4 ESR.   4 ESR fills a surge capacity for LFC engineers, but this too could be taken by a JESR.   4 ESR is also home to some unique capabilities (ILDS, flails) that could be taken over by a JESR.  

The only 4 ESR task that would not go to a JESR would be to support 2 RCR.   Instead, a fd sqn would be permanently placed in 2 RCR and 2 CER would be tasked with generating mission specific support troops.   The Commandant of CFSME would become responsible for validating the fd sqn prior to level 5 training.    

This proposal would see one national level engineer unit to support all environments (and not two national level engineer units separated by about 2 hours of highway).   The idea still is not fleshed out, but what do you think so far?

Not all CFSME taskings are covered off from 4 ESR........although I do imagine it does get hit pretty heavy. I know that 2 CER sent a Troop out to support a Ph 3 course last summer and we have more on the plate this year.

You mention the ILDS............does this thing work yet? I know on Op Athena it was a big paperweight due to it's not being able to detect AP mines.....

Without stepping on toes..........it probably isn't a good idea for the School Commandant to validate anyone.......often the Comdt has been out of the loop for awhile and to have him validate probably isn't a good idea. The split has to be definite. CFSME is part of training systems and not an Operational unit. Very very different. Come to think of it........the jury is still out on whether 4 ESR is an operational unit or not..............just kidding. Everyone unit has a role!

 

[McG]

Not all CFSME taskings are covered off from 4 ESR........although I do imagine it does get hit pretty heavy. I know that 2 CER sent a Troop out to support a Ph 3 course last summer and we have more on the plate this year.

Every CER seems to take a turn supporting a Ph course on rotating years.   However, 4 ESR currently provides the lion's share of support to CFSME across all courses.   Part of the Engr transformation plan is that supporting CFSME formally become a standing task of the regiment.   This is something that could be done by a JESR.

Without stepping on toes..........it probably isn't a good idea for the School Commandant to validate anyone.......often the Comdt has been out of the loop for awhile and to have him validate probably isn't a good idea. The split has to be definite. CFSME is part of training systems and not an Operational unit. Very very different.

Then the CO of the JESR could validate a 2 RCR Engr Sqn.

 

[Bug Guy]

Many elements of JNBCD are an engr task.   While the NBCD Coy is concerned with more than just the engr aspects, this move would give it a home as part of a unit.   Arguably, it is the least critical element in the formation of a JESR.
This would be another factor in favour of Kingston as the home to a JESR

Misguided and misinformed.  The only task directly related the Fd Eng is Decon, which represents one of the five sub-units.  That being said, they would only be employable after 12 months trg and 6 months OJT to function effectively within the Unit. 

The Unit already has a home.  It is a DCDS Unit currently residing within DCDS Group comfortabbly placed under the CF JHQ.  The JESR is fiction while the Coy is reality with mandated tasks, specialists trg and equipment beyond the scope of pseudo nbc specialists with date trg and skills.

:skull:

 

[Chimo]

Actually, I like the concept with a few additions/deletions. I agree with Bugguy that JNBCD would not be a good fit. However, I would like to suggest augment 1 CEU with the CTs from each of the CERs to aid in their capabilities.

The combining of CEU and 4 ESR would make for a very diverse and capable unit that would provide a great deal of support to any operation.  :warstory:

 

[McG]

The only task directly related the Fd Engr is Decon

What about HX guys?

The Unit already has a home. 

My understanding was that "coy" implied a sub unit.

I agree with Bugguy that JNBCD would not be a good fit.

As mentioned above, the addition of the JNBCD Coy was just something extra added to the idea.  The critical element is the merging of 4 ESR wit 1 ESU (formerly 1 CEU).

 

[Bug Guy]

What about HX guys?

My understanding was that "coy" implied a sub unit.

HX guys don't do domestic for the Coy.  RCMP EDTS does it for the Coy as part of the Nat CBRN RT.

Coy denotes size, not status.  It is a DCDS Unit.

:skull: 

 

[McG]

Anyone interested in a domestic role for military HX pers can go visit this thread: Should Cbt Engr EOD, IEDD, and chemical IEDD pers have a domestic mandate?

As I've indicated, the suggestion to included the JNBCD Coy was extra.  What are peoples thoughts on a JESR without any NBCD sub-unit?

 

[Harbinger]

Misguided and misinformed.   The only task directly related the Fd Eng is Decon, which represents one of the five sub-units.   That being said, they would only be employable after 12 months trg and 6 months OJT to function effectively within the Unit.  

The Unit already has a home.   It is a DCDS Unit currently residing within DCDS Group comfortably under the CF JHQ.   The JESR is fiction while the Coy is reality with mandated tasks, specialists trg and equipment beyond the scope of pseudo nbc specialists with date trg and skills.

:skull:

Decon has absolutely nothing to do with engineering at all, and it would only take 12 months to learn the job if you happened to be in a persistant vegetative for the first 11 and a half months. I could take a chimpanzee, and with nothing but a handfull of bananas, and a lot of pointing and grunting, teach him to do an adequate job in an afternoon. The only problem would be when the chimp realized what a degrading, disgusting insult-to-your- intelligence-and-expertise, that the job is. After that the chimp would refuse to do the job for bananas, and only threats and abuse would get it to work. Really, it doesn't take much training to put up a tent and a bunch of other Canadian Tire crapola, and as for the actual deconing bit, you've been undressing youself for years - now you just strip OTHER men. Don't think that there isn't a payoff though - once YOU get his pants and undies off, you get to stand there and make sure he scrubs his nads properly in the shower. Thats where the 18 months of specialist training pays off.
As for the other TWO sub-units, well their jobs are actually interesting - but thats an armoured and infantry task. And surprise, surprise! They don't wanna trade.

Sorry, did I get into a rant there? Guess I better pop my anti-depressants - which, by the way, is what really allows me to function effectively within the unit - not 12 months training and 6 months OJT.

 

[McG]

Decon has absolutely nothing to do with engineering at all

Unless you are talking about ground decontamination or post-NBC enviromental remediation.

 

[McG]

Since this thread is now forever off on its tangent, I've started another for the origional concept of a JESR: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34766.0.html

 

[Harbinger]

Unless you are talking about ground decontamination or post-NBC enviromental remediation.

I'm not - since that is not what the JNBCD COY is mandated to do.