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Continuity of MG capabilities; Vickers-C1/5-C6

Shrek1985

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I am curious about the continuity of Sustained-fire and indirect MG capability in the CF over time.

Clearly we had it in the Vickers and we have it in the C6, but did the C1 and C5 have a similar capability? If not how did we retain it in the C6?

So few nations utilize this capability in their MGs, so I would really like to know how it was retained across different weapons?


Thanks for your time.
 
In addition to the MGs you mentioned, the M2 50 Cal was also important.

You really need to read these articles:

http://regimentalrogue.com/emmagees/emmagees1.htm

http://regimentalrogue.com/emmagees/emmagees2.htm

 
That's a really cool article, thanks!

I haven't finished reading it yet, but it seems to be about tactics, if it wasn't more clear; I am more curious about the technical side;

You can do indirect fire with a C6 and with an Vickers gun. How do you do it with a C1/C5 or a M2 .50 cal? I can't see where anything like a C2 sight would hook up and I have never seen either a C5 mounted on the L4 tripod (heard of it, once) , or the M1917 tripod in Canadian use. I have seen the .50 on the M65 mount, but that's an AA mount. Or would that be perfect?
 
Read those a while back....thanks for the re-post, a good way to spend a sunday morning.

NS
 
Couple of years back the Journal of Canadian Military History had a story about the organization and use of MG battalions in the Brigade structure in WW2.  Had details on their barrage fire techniques etc.

Can't for the life of me recall the article title or author but it might be part of their on line archive of stories and I do not have my old hard copies any more, the price of downsizing from a house to a condo.

http://www.canadianmilitaryhistory.ca/archived-articles/

Even if it isn't part of the online archive, lots of excellent information there.
 
Here is a link to a publication from the US Army in 1919. Course In Machine Guns. It was prepared by Capt Walter C. Short, you can find out about him here. The book shows how indirect firing was conducted through the use of firing tables.

As for a Canadian connection, I remember over 30 years ago having a copy of firing tables in the tool kit of a C1 GPMG. It was a small booklet with dark red textured cardboard covers that were the fashion many years ago.  I never used it and don't know of anybody that actually did at the time. It must have been a hold over from ages past because that same tool kit had the huge cone flash hider and fittings for the butt and bipod and carrying handle. Maybe you can find a copy of this booklet lying around the unit somewhere.
 
I don't recall ever seeing or hearing of any indirect fire method for the .50 caliber.  The T&E mech wouldn't be very well suited to this, as there was no integral means to level the cradle and firing tables were not kept with the tool kit, nor taught during the MG course.  The modern application of indirect mg fire would be a distinct second best to mortars or artillery fire.  The shot density of the beaten zone at range would be pretty thin, and there would have to be a large number of guns firing to attain effect.  I don't recall the technique being employed with the C6 outside of the mg course itself, and even there, much more or the teaching time was dedicated to registering direct targets and obscuration drills.  Admittedly, this is based on recollections that are nearly 15 years old.

Steve
 
I suspect the technique withered away as the guns became less viable for it. A watercooled .50cal would certainly work and would be useful for damaging equipment and vehicles in an area thought to be safe from direct fire. For infantry form up points, I suspect rifle calibre bullets in greater quantity would be better than smaller quantities of larger bullets.
 
Okay, then historically, this is almost unheard of.

Normally when a capability (indirect fire) goes away. it goes away forever.

Plenty of nations using Vickers guns and similar weapons, which later used the FN MAG, never retained indirect fire doctrine. even if they went direct from one to the next.

The only thing I can imagine is that there were enough old timers around who remembered indirect with the Vickers when we adopted the FN MAG that we got close to the whole brit package with the L4 tripod.

That leads us to the next question; the C2 sight. As I understand it; the C2 series is indeed a proprietary Canadian design, which the brits also use. is this correct?

I know it is a retrofit on the M5 Bipod/baseplate kit for the old m19 mortar. What this item developed to ensure a continuation of indirect fire capability later on?
 
Colin P said:
I suspect the technique withered away as the guns became less viable for it. A watercooled .50cal would certainly work and would be useful for damaging equipment and vehicles in an area thought to be safe from direct fire. For infantry form up points, I suspect rifle calibre bullets in greater quantity would be better than smaller quantities of larger bullets.

As we continue to degrade the amount and capability of our artillery and mortars (e.g., expensive stuff), the greater the importance of MG/GMG indirect fire capability (e.g., cheaper stuff).

Which means, of course, we are all doomed.  ;D
 
Gleaning from multiple sources, I believe that the reason Canadians developed indirect MG fire techniques was because we were not wedded to any preconceived doctrines or military culture prior to the Great War, and most of the senior commanders on the Canadian side at that time stepped into the job from business and industry, so were more attuned to the idea of experimenting with their organizations to get the best effects.

ID with MGs is such a massively useful technique that once you come across it, it is hard to understand why you would NOT adopt it (but maybe that's me). OTOH, using MG's in the indirect role is a dying art, and hardly ever practiced on the range or on EX. When I announce to troops that the GPMG G-6 can be used to engage troops from over 2000m using a map and compass, they generally look at me like I just grew an extra head.

Of course, even suggesting that the SF kit should be with the MG at all times (even during the advance) elicits a similar reaction from most PL Comds and 2I/Cs, even though the firebase becomes vastly more effective once the guns are up on the tripods, the attack can be shot in with fire much closer to the advancing troops than when in the light role, and enemy counter attacks can be met at ranges of up to 1800m if ground and visibility permit.

To me, machine gun courses and training clearly needs to be rethought and gunners made very familier with the ID capabilities of their weapons (this isn't to difficult to do, there are several chapters in the GPMG pam and range tables to allow you to do this). OF course, I would also like to know that gunners are familier with the DF capabilities of their weapons. As a test, next time you go on a MG range or in the SAT, give the command "[range], [target indication] Traversing fire, from Left to Right, GO ON! and see what the gunners do...It probably won't be pretty.
 
Thucydides, it was still being taught when I did my IPSWQ with 3 VP in 2010, but it's not a skill set that seems to be used often.  Someone fresh off the course would know what to do if given the range command.
 
I agree with most of what Thucydides has said.

But; indirect fire was built into the vickers/maxim guns, by use of a sight I am used to calling a "collimating" sight and the barr and stround rangefinder. This is detailed in a book called "with a machinegun to the somme". I believe this was a throwback to the initial deployment of the guns on carriages as artillery.

I also think that with better LCE we could easily port the tripod in the advance; the old "caddy-bag" needs to go and all I have seen are horribly worn out. There are several examples of good tripod carriers for MG teams online, but these replace the back pack, which from a Light Infantry background, I do not like.

As a Coy Weapons Det commander, my modest goal is a field and deploy an SF team to SG 1014. Part of our training plan includes figuring out how to port the SF gear and keep up with the company whatever they may be doing. But I'm digressing now.
 
Vickers_machine_gun.gif
 
Shrek1985 said:
I agree with most of what Thucydides has said.

But; indirect fire was built into the vickers/maxim guns, by use of a sight I am used to calling a "collimating" sight and the barr and stround rangefinder. This is detailed in a book called "with a machinegun to the somme". I believe this was a throwback to the initial deployment of the guns on carriages as artillery.

I also think that with better LCE we could easily port the tripod in the advance; the old "caddy-bag" needs to go and all I have seen are horribly worn out. There are several examples of good tripod carriers for MG teams online, but these replace the back pack, which from a Light Infantry background, I do not like.

As a Coy Weapons Det commander, my modest goal is a field and deploy an SF team to SG 1014. Part of our training plan includes figuring out how to port the SF gear and keep up with the company whatever they may be doing. But I'm digressing now.

Luckily there's a youtube movie about that, of course:

Employment of Heavy Machine Guns in the Attack - 1944

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_HYmcm9A2o

 
Best of luck to you in deploying the SF kits.

You may have to do some serious sewing: get some sort fo strapping system to tie the tripod to the #2's rucksack and maybe empty out a small pack for the other "bits" of the SF Kit for the #3 to carry. Of course you still need to hump the spare barrels and all the ammunition as well....

Will look up some history sites and see how this problem was attacked back "in the day". Maybe we don't have to reinvent the wheel.
 
How far back do you want to go?

http://www.theliberator.be/handcart.htm

http://www.handcartz.com/

 
Thucydides said:
Best of luck to you in deploying the SF kits.

You may have to do some serious sewing: get some sort fo strapping system to tie the tripod to the #2's rucksack and maybe empty out a small pack for the other "bits" of the SF Kit for the #3 to carry. Of course you still need to hump the spare barrels and all the ammunition as well....

Will look up some history sites and see how this problem was attacked back "in the day". Maybe we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

2 PARA team: http://www.onesixth.co.uk/vb4forum/showthread.php?1008-2-para-sf-team

Similar personalities to the real dudes as well  ;D
 
NavyShooter said:
How far back do you want to go?

http://www.theliberator.be/handcart.htm

http://www.handcartz.com/

If I had more pull and was guarnteed this job for at least another year, one idea I had, via the Airborne Combat Engineer thinktank sight was a modified golf bag carrier, ironically.
 
Shrek1985 said:
Airborne Combat Engineer thinktank
Now there's a string of words, and potential oxymoron, you don't see together often.  ;)
 
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