Collège Militaire Royal de Saint-Jean (CMR)

[Fiji_Boy_]

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/montreal/college-militaire-saint-jean-resumes-university-status-1.3586662

Thanks to my friend Roborob, I came across to this surprising news that RMC Saint-Jean will be a bachelor granting university again.

Coming this from Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan  himself, I am sure this is a solid piece of announcement.

My official letter says, 'you will receive subsidy of education towards a Bachelor of Science from RMC Saint-Jean for 4 years.' So does this mean the government had in mind that we who are sent there for our first year will eventually graduate in RMC Saint-Jean?

P.S. I am actually excited for the new change and I will learn French better!

 

[PuckChaser]

Seems like a great use of limited DND funds. : facepalm:

 

[MSmith]

Seems like a great use of limited DND funds. : facepalm:

  Well, maybe not as bad as you might think? While there is still a debate as to the value of the military colleges, in light of the current recruitment crisis I think that it's fair to say that the main benefit they provide to the forces is a guaranteed quota of new officers, with a strong recruiting incentive. That being said, a professor at CMR explained to me why CMR is actually valuable, because I was skeptical of why we needed two universities let alone one:

  The gist of his explanation is that Francophone recruits would not want to travel to Kingston to complete their CEGEP year, as some speak very little English. Thus, CMR provided a school in a very Francophone part of Quebec to allow them to assimilate more gradually and comfortably, while learning English at the same time. Enough anglophones complain about being posted to CMR for one year because of the lack of English speakers around, is it so hard to understand the other way around? Thus, it acts as a recruiting incentive for Francophone officer cadets.

So while a second military college may not be as useful as new IFV's, trucks or bullets, if National Defense decides that the Military College program is worthwhile then this is not too far from the same vein of thinking.

 

[MSmith]

My official letter says, 'you will receive subsidy of education towards a Bachelor of Science from RMC Saint-Jean for 4 years.' So does this mean the government had in mind that we who are sent there for our first year will eventually graduate in RMC Saint-Jean?

As far as I understand, the current plan is for RMCSJ to only offer social science programs; you will likely continue to Kingston. That could have changed.

 

[PuckChaser]

We have 0 need for 2 degree granting institutions, we closed Royal Roads for a reason. Kingston is basically western Quebec, there are tons of francophones there and a large university populace used to working with students of many cultures.

 

[MSmith]

Calling Kingston western Quebec is a pretty far stretch.

I agree with you that there isn't a need for two degree granting institutions, but there is a real need to have CMR exist and the amount of money needed to upgrade it to a full degree granting university is likely little in the grand scheme of things. All the facilities already exist, and CMR already employs many university professors. CBC stated that the cost for running CMR as a full university was approximately $4 million more.
Either way it's all semantics, the university will be opened no matter what you or I think of it. When it comes down to it though, I'm certain there are far worse things that we could spend the money on.

Edited: The cost is $4 million more, not $4 million total.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-harper-quebec-military-college-1.3240015

 

[PuckChaser]

$4 more million, for what benefit? So some kids from Quebec can stay in Quebec? Why isn't there RMC Edmonton then? The only reason CMR St. Jean existed was to give Quebec applicants the year of school their province decided they didn't need. If we had an issue with Quebec students assimilating into the CAF culture, then they should go to a civilian university and do their military training in the summers. RMC cleared a bunch of space by encouraging UTPNCM candidates attend a university in their current location instead of posting them all to Kingston, to save money. Now we've pissed that money away so we can teach social sciences? Why can't civilian universities do that?

 

[Loachman]

We spend too much money on RMC as it is. It should be reduced in scope, not bloated further.

And there was no shortage of applicants when OCTP (Officer Candidate Training Plan) existed. That brought people in directly and sent them straight to CF Officer Candidate School. Just as there was no need to provide every single Officer with a degree then, there is no need now.

There is always something worse on which to spend money. There are also far, far better things on which to spend money.

The lesser of two evils is still evil.

 

[Journeyman]

.... there is a real need to have CMR exist

Could you explain why?

All the facilities already exist, and CMR already employs many university professors.

Again, why is that so if it isn't a degree-granting institution?

 

[dapaterson]

Interesting that Royal Roads managed to become a significant educational institution after the milcol there was closed, while CMR failed to do the same.

 

[MSmith]

RMC cleared a bunch of space by encouraging UTPNCM candidates attend a university in their current location instead of posting them all to Kingston, to save money. Now we've pissed that money away so we can teach social sciences? Why can't civilian universities do that?

I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way. I agree that RMC does not necessarily produce officers that are a significant cut above their civvie-U counterparts, but they are a recruitment tool. Like I said earlier, the forces are lacking in recruitment recently, and the colleges are one way to give an incentive to sign up. I don't think that having a Quebec counterpart is that unrealistic, seeing as just over 20 years ago half of Quebec was ready to split from Canada.

Interesting that Royal Roads managed to become a significant educational institution after the milcol there was closed, while CMR failed to do the same.

That was a decision by the BC provincial government, i'm not sure what you are getting at here? I would assume that the Quebec government did not see the need for it, when CEGEP St-Jean is a few blocks away.

Could you explain why?
Again, why is that so if it isn't a degree-granting institution?

Like I said above, it's a recruitment tool for francophone officer cadets. The college maintains university professors becuase approximately 60% of the school are anglophone officer cadets who are there doing their 1st year of university studies. The college is far too large to only house the limited number of Francophones who need to complete their CEGEP program, so some of the remaining space is used for Anglophones.

We spend too much money on RMC as it is. It should be reduced in scope, not bloated further.

And there was no shortage of applicants when OCTP (Officer Candidate Training Plan) existed. That brought people in directly and sent them straight to CF Officer Candidate School. Just as there was no need to provide every single Officer with a degree then, there is no need now.

Honestly guys I agree with you completely, for what it does RMC is not nearly worth the taxpayer cost. Do officers really need non-technical degrees? Probably not, the UK gets on just fine without them. However, there IS a shortage of officers joining now.

 

[dapaterson]

What are you basing the statement "There's a shortage of officers" on?  When I look in HRMS, I see just under 23% of all officers identified as Francophone; higher than the proportion of Francophones in Canada.  When do a further look at numbers, I see a CAF with nearly 25% of its personnel as officer cadets and commissioned officers; that seems high, not low.

Again, I don't see the problem to which this is supposed to be the solution.

 

[Lumber]

We spend too much money on RMC as it is. It should be reduced in scope, not bloated further.

And there was no shortage of applicants when OCTP (Officer Candidate Training Plan) existed. That brought people in directly and sent them straight to CF Officer Candidate School. Just as there was no need to provide every single Officer with a degree then, there is no need now.

There is always something worse on which to spend money. There are also far, far better things on which to spend money.

The lesser of two evils is still evil.

To quote someone wise than I, "If I’m going to command at a certain level, on behalf of a lawfully elected government in another place in the world, it is not unreasonable to expect that I can elevate my intellectual game?”

Your mileage may vary, but I have personally seen and continue to see tangible benefits from my university experience. My experience and my education has made me a better person, a better adult, and as a result a better Officer. Could I have gotten to this point through experience alone? Perhaps, with time.

As for spending money on RMC/CMR vs. simply sending people to civilian University? I'll echo what's already been said. They act as recruiting tools to attract the nation's best who see them as an elite institutions, and they are symbols of national pride, like West Point and Sandhurst.

Also, even though it only educates Officer Cadets, it is still a federal research institution which produces a large amount of worthwhile material for academia.

 

[Journeyman]

My experience and my education has made me a better person, a better adult, and as a result a better Officer.

Hence the haiku posts.  >

 

[dapaterson]

Start again College
Regardless of any need
More votes in Quebec

 

[Journeyman]

  :facepalm:
I feel like I'm watching Andre the Giant is doing his rhyming thing in The Princess Bride.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Hence the haiku posts.  >

Judge ye not anyone by his metre alone ...  ;D

Not picking on you personally, Lumber, but you're not the first to bring up these arguments, so this is as much for others with the same points, too.

To quote someone wise than I, "If I’m going to command at a certain level, on behalf of a lawfully elected government in another place in the world, it is not unreasonable to expect that I can elevate my intellectual game?”

Not unreasonable at all, but this leads to a couple of questions:
1)  Is a military-run university the only/best/most efficient place to "elevate one's intellectual game"?
2)  Is a university the only/best/most efficient place to "elevate one's intellectual game"?  (And I ask that as someone who's got both a university degree and a college diploma.)
Anecdotally speaking, from my experience (admittedly 20+ years ago), I've worked with good officers who came through military colleges, good officers who came through regular universities and good officers who didn't have degrees when I worked with them, hence my questions.

Your mileage may vary, but I have personally seen and continue to see tangible benefits from my university experience. My experience and my education has made me a better person, a better adult, and as a result a better Officer. Could I have gotten to this point through experience alone? Perhaps, with time.

See Q1 above.

As for spending money on RMC/CMR vs. simply sending people to civilian University? I'll echo what's already been said. They act as recruiting tools to attract the nation's best who see them as an elite institutions, and they are symbols of national pride, like West Point and Sandhurst.

Fair enough, but how is being a "symbol of national pride" a valid/useful measure of how good a job of elevating the collective intellectual game of officers in the CF?  How much are we willing to pay for national pride if this isn't the best way to spend money to reach the aim?

Also, even though it only educates Officer Cadets, it is still a federal research institution which produces a large amount of worthwhile material for academia.

I'd love to hear from others who know the academic community better than I do (translation:  almost anyone) about how large, worthwhile and unique the research being done @ the MilColls is compared to other research U's.

 

[dapaterson]

  :facepalm:
I feel like I'm watching Andre the Giant is doing his rhyming thing in The Princess Bride.

Is that why you make comments which are often snide?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Is that why you make comments which are often snide?

Thrown in, no doubt, as a rhyming aside?

 

[dapaterson]

I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.


And note that ROUSes are running amok in Toronto right now...