CLS: From Arid CADPAT to Snowshoes

[dogger1936]

How to keep soldiers in.

#1. Instead of announcing deploying to the tundra as a way of keeping soldiers in; announce it as a noble thing to do protecting our sovernity. Otherwise it appears the army senior leadership has ZERO idea how to retain NCM's and NCO's. How many soldiers have heard "yeah thats a good way to retain me :" this week? How many snr NCO's had to explain to young troops our country sovernigty may not be glamourous and exciting but an important role. :nod:

All due to one SNR officer's speech which made him appear like he doesnt have a clue on retention.

#2. You want retention? Treat your injured good. Every injured soldier has 20 non injured friends who are watching the system mess him about and provide crap health care. Continue to treat them poorly...you got soldiers with no faith in our medical system or leadership to provide good care to our injured...it then brings the question what happens if that becomes me? Is this army worth it? I've been seeing this one first hand. Many of our troops are discusted with their treatment and the treatment of their friends. I've signed out at least 20 young guys this past month...more to come.


#3. Family time and don't be skimpy on the short days. Hold competitions and give the winners some short days. Nothing helps along training as friendly competition for a 4 day weekend. Soldiers like throphies....soldiers really train hard to win competitions when 2 days short are offered. This sounds common sense...but  I have yet to ever see it happen.

 

[OldSolduer]

How to keep soldiers in.

#2. You want retention? Treat your injured good. Every injured soldier has 20 non injured friends who are watching the system mess him about and provide crap health care. Continue to treat them poorly...you got soldiers with no faith in our medical system or leadership to provide good care to our injured...it then brings the question what happens if that becomes me? Is this army worth it? I've been seeing this one first hand. Many of our troops are discusted with their treatment and the treatment of their friends. I've signed out at least 20 young guys this past month...more to come.


#3. Family time and don't be skimpy on the short days. Hold competitions and give the winners some short days. Nothing helps along training as friendly competition for a 4 day weekend. Soldiers like throphies....soldiers really train hard to win competitions when 2 days short are offered. This sounds common sense...but  I have yet to ever see it happen.

One hundred percent in agreement with point number 2. And point number three.

 

[BDTyre]

I'll point out (again) that the highest temperature ever recorded in Kandahar was 42 point something degrees.

Of course, that's ambient air temperature, not factoring in things like humidity or the sun hitting you or even reflecting off the road, or in a tank or...


But the press should at least qualify things like that...

The record I found was 43.8 - 44 for argument's sake. Another thing to keep in mind that average and record temperatures are always recorded at a single site (here in Canada, usually at the airport) and don't reflect local/regional variations. I'm fairly certain that my winter tour saw temperatures of 42 to 45, and I've had anecdotal evidence from a few summer tours of ~60-ish highs. That said, I don't know the context of those reports...but of course I've seen more than a few news articles stating that summer temps reach low 50s to nearly 60.

I'm sure those that have been there in the summer can address that properly.

 

[Furniture]

I did my tour in the summer over there and I can attest to the fact that it is unreasonably hot. The problem with many of the temperature figures that people are throwing around is that they aren't considered accurate for meteorological purposes. There are very specific ways that the temperature has to be measured to actually be considered offical. Two of the key mistakes people are making when they come up with the temps is they measure them near the ground, and they are in direct sunlight. When the temperature is measured at a proper weather station the thermometer is contained in a Stevenson Screen which provides shade and ensures that it is about one metre above the ground. The reason for this is so that temperatures anywhere in the world can be compared in a scientific way.
I know my portable weather station was recording temps well below the 50+ guys were getting using their Canadian Tire thermometers placed in direct sunlight on a black tarp.

 

[vonGarvin]

I did my tour in the summer over there and I can attest to the fact that it is unreasonably hot. The problem with many of the temperature figures that people are throwing around is that they aren't considered accurate for meteorological purposes. There are very specific ways that the temperature has to be measured to actually be considered offical. Two of the key mistakes people are making when they come up with the temps is they measure them near the ground, and they are in direct sunlight. When the temperature is measured at a proper weather station the thermometer is contained in a Stevenson Screen which provides shade and ensures that it is about one metre above the ground. The reason for this is so that temperatures anywhere in the world can be compared in a scientific way.
I know my portable weather station was recording temps well below the 50+ guys were getting using their Canadian Tire thermometers placed in direct sunlight on a black tarp.

THANK YOU!  I was personally getting sick and tired of the "one-upmanship" on temps.  "It was 45"  "It was 50"....etc.  But, as I try to explain in my non-met trained way, was that the ambient air temp is measured as you say, and then the relative effects are based on a number of variables: humidity, sunlight, wind, sitting in a black suit on the tarmac, etc. 

For what it's worth, the highest temp ever recorded in Kandahar was around 42 or 43 degrees.  Which in itself is very hot.  Add the effects of working with plates, the humidity, the sun, it adds up.

 

[PMedMoe]

For what it's worth, the highest temp ever recorded in Kandahar was around 42 or 43 degrees.  Which in itself is very hot.  Add the effects of working with plates, the humidity, the sun, it adds up.

True, although, humidity is fairly low in KAF.

http://www.timeanddate.com/weather/afghanistan/kandahar

 

[Journeyman]

The next "war for oil" (as our leftist friends tend to call it) and strategic area for the resources that are needed to supply the world's industries will be likely above the Arctic Circle.

There's a newly-available report from the Congressional Research Service (which informs US political decision-makers.....well, some of their staffers anyway), that provides some American perspective on this.

The five Arctic coastal states—the United States, Canada, Russia, Norway, and Denmark (of
which Greenland is a territory)—are in the process of preparing Arctic territorial claims for
submission to the Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf. The Russian claim to the
enormous underwater Lomonosov Ridge, if accepted, would reportedly grant Russia nearly onehalf
of the Arctic area. There are also four other unresolved Arctic territorial disputes.

The diminishment of Arctic ice could lead in the coming years to increased commercial shipping
on two trans-Arctic sea routes. Current international guidelines for ships operating in Arctic
waters are being updated, with a targeted completion date of 2010.

Changes to the Arctic brought about by warming temperatures will likely allow more exploration
for oil, gas, and minerals. Warming that causes permafrost to melt could pose challenges to
onshore exploration activities. Increased oil and gas exploration and tourism (cruise ships) in the
Arctic increase the risk of pollution in the region. Cleaning up oil spills in ice-covered waters will
be more difficult than in other areas, primarily because effective strategies have yet to be
developed.

The complete report, CRS "Changes in the Arctic: Background and Issues for Congress," 15 October 2010, is available here

Despite all the rhetoric -- which may expand to sabre-rattling in time -- arctic operations, whether commercial or military, is a much more difficult problem than headline-writers in Ottawa or Washington understand.



And I think it's cute that CRS has to point out to Congress that Greenland belongs to Denmark  ;D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Whether deployed or not, I gauge the temperature as soon as I walk out of a controlled environment.

First I look out the window. Lots of snow, no leaves on the trees, no dogs in the park. Is my car covered with frost or ice or snow?

Damn, it's cold out. Better dress appropriately.

First I look out the window. Lot's of kids playing. Have to cut the lawn. Wife wants plants for the porch, fucking dogs are shitting on my lawn.

Break out the Hawaiian shirt collection.

We had no AC when I deployed. Everything worked fine. Computers, printers, fridges and deep freezes. We had no air conditioning.  My office thermometer topped out at 140 degrees. I got climatised and lived with it, so did our equipment.

If you're on deployment, and you're living in a climate controlled condition where walking out on the porch is a suprise, or shock to your delicate disposition?

Perhaps you should rethink the reason or factors that led you to your decision to join our ex halted group of warriors.

You're supposed to be a soldier, with a warrior attitude, does someone really have to tell you how cold it is outside and how to survive in it?

 

[George Wallace]

Whether deployed or not, I gauge the temperature as soon as I walk out of a controlled environment.

Fairly good advice, and what I usually do for the most part.  Only time I didn't was when the Herc landed in Pond Inlet at zero dark thirty one December morning and the Ramp dropped.  Frack!  It got really COLD, really quick.

 

[dogger1936]

Fairly good advice, and what I usually do for the most part.  Only time I didn't was when the Herc landed in Pond Inlet at zero dark thirty one December morning and the Ramp dropped.  Frack!  It got really COLD, really quick.

Or the transition from Dubai to Ottawa in december.....no soldier can adjust to that!!

 

[daftandbarmy]

Or the transition from Dubai to Ottawa in december.....no soldier can adjust to that!!

Once upon a time I traveled directly from a winter in eastern Norway (the coldest part of the country) where I was attending a 6 week long AWT course, with temps in the low minus 30s and 40s, to Oman where temps were in the high plus 30s/ low 40s. It sucked, but being a fit young lad I acclimatized quite fast.

It helped that we headed fairly quickly, on foot, up into the Jebel Akhdar where temps at night dropped into the single digits. For some reason, I was nice and warm but few others were!  ;D

Over time it became apparent to me that the fitter you were, the faster you acclimatized. There were a bunch of medical studies out backing that theory that I read a couple of decades ago but can't put my hands on now.

 

[Shamrock]

You're supposed to be a soldier, with a warrior attitude, does someone really have to tell you how cold it is outside and how to survive in it?

Figuring out that being cold sucks is a fairly short learning curve.  Being instructed on how to mitigate that suck only does so much.  We, as a Force, should remain cognizant that a great deal of our recruits come from urban areas, one city being known for demanding the army come to its assistance at the first sign of snow.

Individual cold weather training is as essential as any other individual training. Imagine hearing, "I know stuff can be heavy, I know how to walk, therefore, my BFT should be written off."  But I'm not arguing for or against individual training.  I argue in favor of collective cold- and arctic training, where leaders learn the effects of cold on their troops and resources and how this influences how a mission is accomplished.

Can this be accomplished through abolishing basic winter indoc and basic arctic warfare but instead maintaining these as specialist courses at the unit (or higher) level?

 

[OldSolduer]

Figuring out that being cold sucks is a fairly short learning curve.  Being instructed on how to mitigate that suck only does so much.  We, as a Force, should remain cognizant that a great deal of our recruits come from urban areas, one city being known for demanding the army come to its assistance at the first sign of snow.

Individual cold weather training is as essential as any other individual training. Imagine hearing, "I know stuff can be heavy, I know how to walk, therefore, my BFT should be written off."  But I'm not arguing for or against individual training.  I argue in favor of collective cold- and arctic training, where leaders learn the effects of cold on their troops and resources and how this influences how a mission is accomplished.

Can this be accomplished through abolishing basic winter indoc and basic arctic warfare but instead maintaining these as specialist courses at the unit (or higher) level?

First of all I agree.
Second, we all need (Army wise at any rate) to be able to operate in winter. My opinion? Stop winter "idnoc" for trained winter warfare people. Go on winter ex for five days, like we used to for "winter Indoc"

 

[Good2Golf]

Fairly good advice, and what I usually do for the most part.  Only time I didn't was when the Herc landed in Pond Inlet at zero dark thirty one December morning and the Ramp dropped.  Frack!  It got really COLD, really quick.

Try wobble pumping JP-4 into a helo in February in Pond Inlet (or Clyde River, or Grise Fjiord, or Eureka, or Alert, etc...)  Holy Jeebus!

:-\

 

[Journeyman]

Try wobble pumping JP-4 into a helo in February .....

    :warstory:

 

[Good2Golf]

    :warstory:

I know, I know...it's still not as hard as switching trades and classifications more often than APS's come and go... 

 

[DexOlesa]

Try wobble pumping JP-4 into a helo in February in Pond Inlet (or Clyde River, or Grise Fjiord, or Eureka, or Alert, etc...)  Holy Jeebus!

:-\

ahh the joys of northern flying.

 

[GAP]

Or lighting firepots under propane tanks at -40 (unnerving) , cause, at -40 propane is a liquid, not a gas, thus it can't flow to furnace.....

 

[daftandbarmy]

Or lighting firepots under propane tanks at -40 (unnerving) , cause, at -40 propane is a liquid, not a gas, thus it can't flow to furnace.....

Right up there with blowtorching the Band Wagon http://www.pakistan-karachi.info/Bv_206

 

[Good2Golf]

Or lighting firepots under propane tanks at -40 (unnerving) , cause, at -40 propane is a liquid, not a gas, thus it can't flow to furnace.....

Gord, that reminds me of the late-80's CF use of propane to power vehicles.  Images of propane-powered staff cars and duty vans stranded all over Cold Lake the first winter of service when the temp dipped below the -42.1C boiling point.  There were a few MSE ops jumping up and down on the bumpers to try and 'warm up' the propane to get a little vapour pressure.  :  They stayed in the fleet in Victoria and other warmer places for some time, but their life up North was pretty short.

CF use of alternative fuels...A for Effort, E for Execution.

It would be interesting to see the Army/CF fleet of non-tac vehicles move to diesel/JP8 as well.  That would be single fuel and safe.