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Chrétien gov rejected military's advice on Afghan deployment: ex-army chief

Yrys

Army.ca Veteran
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http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/10/18/afghan-military-advice.html

The former Liberal government led by Jean Chrétien rejected the advice of military
commanders by deciding in early 2003 to send 2,000 troops to Afghanistan, CBC News has learned.

In the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks, Canada had sent several hundred soldiers
to assist U.S. troops in tracking down al-Qaeda militants in Afghanistan. When that
mission ended, senior military officers recommended that Canada send only 500
soldiers in a very limited role — but Ottawa chose instead to deploy 2,000 troops.
 
Indeed, see: http://ruxted.ca/index.php?/archives/10-Why-We-Are-In-Afghanistan-Joining-The-Dots.html especially:

... former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien:

• Did the right thing, the honourable thing in early 2002 when he ordered nearly 1,000 Canadian soldiers to go to Afghanistan and fight the Taliban and Al Qaeda;
• Probably did the logistically sensible thing when he restricted that mission to one, six month, tour of duty;
• As was his wont, took careful note of the radical shift in Canadian public opinion which occurred after the Anglo-American (plus) invasion of Iraq; and
Ordered a second Afghan mission – with ISAF in Kabul – for base and dishonourable reasons: to appease the USA which was displaying growing frustration with and distrust of Canada. Many Canadians felt that US frustrations might be vented in other areas – like border restrictions with severe economic impacts - right in Canadians’ wallets. It appears that PM Chrétien calculated that sending troops to Afghanistan and playing a ‘lead’ role in a UN sanctioned, NATO(+) mission would mollify official Washington while not alarming Canadians.

Nothing new here, except that the CBC finally did join the dots
 
That's because they are to busy wetting themselves over Bush responding to a comparison of Iraq to the Tet Offensive.
 
And again, the only real mention of the UN support for this mission was almost non-existent (a sound bite from a scrum with McCallum). All news organizations just skim over that part.

Still... no one seems particularly upset that deploying less than 10% of the Army can be such a difficult task for the CF (even if it is to the end of the world). We've been doing roughly the same thing for a few generations, shouldn't it be the natural order of things by now? I see no "in-depth" report on the long-term failure of the peace dividend on the horizon.

 
Some points (impressions from memory and first three might be a bit off): 

1) The CBC story was almost dismissive of the first 2002 mission and gave the impression that it was not a serious combat mission.

2) The story gave the impression that the new 2003 mission was guaranteed to be a very risky, combat mission when in fact it was closer to "traditional peacekeeping".

3) The story did not sufficiently point out the large change of the nature of the mission that the Martin govenment accepted in Kandahar from that in Kabul.

4) The story did not--naturally--investigate sufficiently the angle that Chretien put the troops in Afstan so he would have nothing for Iraq if the UN in the end approved military action there.  Instead Eddie Goldenberg  (I think) was simply allowed to say the government had decided--he did not say when--not to send troops to Iraq so there was no connection with Afstan.  That ignores the fact that the Afstan announcement was made on Feb, 12, 2003. 
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1045079373440_67

This was at a time when Chretien was still saying that Canada would follow the UN Security Council's lead on Iraq.  For instance, six days after the Afstan announcement, on Feb. 18:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/2003/0218Canada.htm

After months of hesitation, Canada finally made it clear on Tuesday that it has no intention of contributing to a U.S.-led attack on Iraq that has not been blessed by the U.N. Security Council.

President Bush has said that if the United Nations backs away from the idea of authorizing force to disarm Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, he is prepared to wage war with like-minded allies in what he calls a "coalition of the willing."

Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien, wary of antagonizing the country's most important military ally and trading partner, has, until now, consistently declined to rule out contributing forces to such a coalition. But on Tuesday he told Parliament that Canada would not join an unsanctioned campaign.

"We have not been asked and we do not intend to participate in a group of the willing," he said in reply to a question asking whether Canada would join Bush's "coalition of willing countries" in an attack on Iraq.

"The policy of the government is very clear. If there has to be military activity in Iraq, we want it to be approved by the U.N. Security Council," he continued...

Now note this (same story):

Chretien and his senior ministers have consistently said that if the United Nations does sanction an assault on Iraq, Canada will take part.

Whether Canada's over-stretched armed forces could contribute much is questionable, since last week Ottawa announced it would send up to 2,000 troops for a year to take part in a U.N. peacekeeping mission based in Kabul.

So either Chretien and his minister were lying then or Mr Goldenberg is lying now.  In any event the motive for the Afstan mission is crystal clear.

Chretien on Jan. 15, 2003; the CBC completely ignored this apparent military commitment to a UN-sanctioned mission against Iraq:
http://www.creativeresistance.ca/canada/2003-jan15-chretien-repeats-support-for-un-on-iraq.htm

If the international community decides that the use of force against Iraq is necessary because it is the only way to bring an end to Iraq's non-compliance, then Canada will do its part," Mr. Chretien said, adding that "the international community must speak and act through the United Nations Security Council."

From Hansard, Feb. 18, 2003:
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?pub=hansard&mee=62&parl=37&ses=2&language=E

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have not been asked and we do not intend to take part in a voluntary group. The government's policy is very clear. If there must be a war in Iraq, we want it to be approved by the Security Council. There may be another Security Council resolution. When the issue has been debated, we will see what we will do. However, our policy is to follow the directives set out by the Security Council.

Mark
Ottawa



 
MarkOttawa said:
...
So either Chretien and his minister were lying then or Mr Goldenberg is lying now ...

Mark
Ottawa

Does it have to be either/or?  I suspect both could be true.
 
Edward Campbell: I was being Christian, not consistently logical ;).

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
This was at a time when Chretien was still saying that Canada would follow the UN Security Council's lead on Iraq.  For instance, six days after the Afstan announcement, on Feb. 18:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/2003/0218Canada.htm

To add to your point (and please correct me if I am wrong - also going on memory) - Chretien only became strongly-vocal about his "only if the UN blesses it" campaign after France had made it clear it would veto any motion starting a war in Iraq.

Thus nearly four years later, the collective Canadian memory is that Chretien opted out of the war because the UN didn't support it - an action based on principle.
However, he only started banging that blue drum when he knew it was safe - an action based on the path of least resistance, not principle, IMHO.
 
Liberal, Conservative, really lads, whats the difference?

Our combat troops were sent, and continue to be sent, into harms way, without the proper equipment is what it is. 

Indeed, it was Harper who flew to Khandahar and made his famous speech about leading.... without addressing the General's concerns then or now.

For example, what about the air recognition devices that were lacking in the second friendly fire air attack? Good Lord, how could such a thing happen in the aftermath of the first deployment when four valiant members of the PPCLI perished during a night fire range... How come they continue to have to rely on the G Wagons beyond the gate's perimeter when so much time has passed? We can fly tanks in but not enough LAVIIIs to protect the troops on the line? Most importantly, why the escalation in men and equipment into the south when the generals, those who would lead, dared not tread.

It may be true that the Liberal were in power but the current rulling party sure as hell had no qualms about ignoring the generals reservations. Nor stepping up the pace without  addressing the fundemental shortcommings the armed forces had at the time. And still does.

To harsh? 

Considering the context of the general reports, the fact that both parties were appriased of the danger and did squat to address the situation (at great consequence, Iltis, Gwagon and the air recognition devices), no, I think not.
 
ProPatria Mike said:
...
Most importantly, why the escalation in men and equipment into the southy when the generals, those who would lead, dared not tread.
...

Do you mean the Canadian General's who advised against deploying a force greater than 500+ personnel? If so, they didn't seem to have a problem with the dare part, mainly just the logistics of being in Afghanistan at all.

 
Ok.

They would not dare until the logistic issues were rectified.

Specifically, I would suggest, the manpower issues.

I think General Hillier's most recent revelations about turning other trades into infantrymen for three years is merely a consequence of both governments ignoring those generals who studdied the situation in detail.  Nor will it work. Our infantry Regiments are composed of men who seek the pointy end of the stick, it takes a special type of volunteer to willingly accept such extreme risks, to put it on the line for his nation in such a manner.

I would also note that those that serve this nation make this distinction when they join up.
 
ProPatria Mike said:
...
Specifically, I would suggest, the manpower issues.

I think General Hillier's most recent revelations about turning other trades into infantrymen for three years is merely a consequence of both governments ignoring those generals who studdied the situation in detail.  Nor will it work. Our infantry Regiments are composed of men who seek the pointy end of the stick, it takes a special type of volunteer to willingly accept such extreme risks, to put it on the line for his nation in such a manner.
...

Admittedly I am unclear on why there is a need to do this, or have the 1 tour cap (not that every battalion will cycle through between now and 2009).

Despite some protestations, I have never seen a lack of Infantry junior ranks willing to deploy. There did seem to be a problem at the NCO level; always a need to have battalion NCOs teach at the schools. This had 2 major consequences: first, lowering the number of NCOs available to the battalion; and secondly, causing NCOs to spend even more time away from domestic life than should be required. Neither of these problems would be fixed by bringing new recruits from other trades.

I am not fundamentally opposed to rerolling other trades to Infantry; I just don't see the need at the moment.

Than again, your main concern seemed to be the equipment, and I know nothing about air recognition devices.

 
Well, three years, two battalions plus every year... for example, the PPCLI is still in country and now an entire company of Vandoos  has been sent over to do escort duties. So in essence, two other regular force units are effected every time the battle group changes... Oconnor says no more then one tour but, frankly, I do not see how this is possible without expanding the ranks of infantrymen and initiating special battle schools to see that they are adequately trained for the task at hand. The air recognisition devices are in relationship to the afteraction report from the first encounter and the fact that, years later, an avoidable friendly fire incident occured.
 
Iterator said:
Admittedly I am unclear on why there is a need to do this, or have the 1 tour cap (not that every battalion will cycle through between now and 2009).

Despite some protestations, I have never seen a lack of Infantry junior ranks willing to deploy. There did seem to be a problem at the NCO level; always a need to have battalion NCOs teach at the schools. This had 2 major consequences: first, lowering the number of NCOs available to the battalion; and secondly, causing NCOs to spend even more time away from domestic life than should be required. Neither of these problems would be fixed by bringing new recruits from other trades.

I am not fundamentally opposed to rerolling other trades to Infantry; I just don't see the need at the moment.

Than again, your main concern seemed to be the equipment, and I know nothing about air recognition devices.

You would have to field promote many of the senior privates and Master Corporals who have seen action into the rank of NCO, this would suck some of the experience out of the squads, but not much other choice if you want to expand rapidly.
 
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