Changes, needed fixes in Cadets (merged)

[Caz]

Carter, what do you know about CIC training?

As an officer in the CIC branch, I would love to see us brought to a higher, more ‘military‘ standard. But we have facts to face.

The CIC isn‘t glamourous. We‘re entitled to 23 paid days a year, and most of us do 10 days a month of time. In my case, I‘m on the Regional Holding Establishment, so I don‘t even get paid.

Mind you, if I was in this for the money, I would have picked a different career.

So let‘s face facts. On my BOQ, we had OCdts and NCdts that were ex-cadets, teachers, parents. If we were to do things, like say all CIC need a university degree, we would shut down half of all the rural squadrons and corps, and that is where we are needed the most. When you have a manpower shortage, it‘s hard to get the cream off the top all the time.

The average life of the CIC officer is 4.7 years. Many very talented officers find new careers and direction with the RegF or PRes. Others stay with the CIC, and other simply leave for whatever reason (I know it will be tough for me when I‘m in law school to be at a unit).

As for CHAP... it hasn‘t changed a thing. If it was wrong to do something now that CHAP is here, it was wrong to do it before, as well. Now people are just aware of their rights and responsiblities. Furthermore, CHAP has been with us since 1999. Get over it. It‘s not going anywhere.

I will agree that there is a distinct lack of Army in Army Cadets. The folks at DCdts struggle with a huge image problem when promoting the second largest, and most senior, cadet element. The ‘teenage soilder‘ view doesn‘t cut it when trying to get our $180M a year from the budget to run the programs. I think maybe the pendulum of reason has swung a little far in the wrong direction of late, though. We were talking about this in the Para thread - Air and Sea Cadets have some neat skill-based opportunities to compete for - what do Army Cadets get these days?

Look at it this way. Cadets is the fully-funded (for all mandatory training) government youth program. It‘s a godsend to a good part of the population - the only way some people could send thier kids to camp, or the only way some of these kids can learn to funcntion on their own. It has to be accessible to everyone. Section 46 of the National Defence Act allows for a partnership between civilian leagues and the DND to support the program. Although cadets has a military flavor, it‘s not the military.

How do we fix it? I don‘t know - is it really broken? I would love to see some fellow officers remember what they are taught on BOQ in their Duties and Responsiblities classes, and instill that at the LHQ. We‘ll see how our training evolves over the next 18 months as our new courses come in that make us a little more specialized to work in our MOCs.

We‘ll see how the cadet programs evolve as they are re-written by 2008.

Long story short... you have a rural unit where the officers and cadets may not be very military like. However, that cadet has the chance to attend a senior leadership course, or surivival, or something that perks their interest, and helps better themselves as a person, and a member of society. That right there, that‘s what the programs big goals are all about.

 

[chalk1]

Well put, Caz.

 

[Jason Jarvis]

I agree that leadership is a problem. Many officers are in the latter half of their careers and their energy levels wind down the closer they get to retirement. And some are simply "punching their ticket."

But I know an officer who‘s in his mid-30s and is very dedicated to cadets and providing a well-rounded training experience. But he doesn‘t want to have anything to do with the "army" side of army cadets -- things like fieldcraft, patrolling or even shooting -- unless they can be used for the things he enjoys, like canoeing, mountain biking, rapelling, summer expeditions, biathlon, etc. Does this make him a bad leader? Is he putting his own interests ahead of the cadets, or is he using his "initiative to find interesting things that Cadets can do within the scope of the program?"

Scott937 wrote:
The most destructive thing for the cadet movement is to have their cadets graduate and become CIC officers in a corps. Here is why I say leadership, because when the cadets come into the program, they only know what they are told.

I don‘t totally agree with you here, Scott, as I do believe it‘s important for senior cadets to move into the CIC, and that the CF should actively recruit the very best among RSMs, SWOs and CPOs. But I don‘t think they should join their former unit -- they should be posted to either a different unit or even element where possible, to learn from a new set of mentors and leaders and for general life experience (to combat the "only know what they‘re told" syndrome). I think it‘s too easy for existing officers to continue to treat a new OCdt as their former cadet rank, with the end result that the rookie will get bored, frustrated and leave -- and then no one wins.

Scott937 wrote:
I do see value in having the PRes members of what I will call the "Cadet Leadership Team" but not for their military experience. They offer support in what refer to as the professional group. Generally (I do hate using that word), the former regular force personnel are free from personal "military" ambition, where as the one would question why a reserve member was devoting their time to a cadet unit and not to their own unit.

I‘m in total agreement with this statement. Former members of the CF with no personal ambitions can exert a huge influence on the morale and training of a unit. But people being people, they‘re few and far in between. I count myself very lucky for the chance to work with a retired air force WO2 one summer -- he was everything the CIC officers on staff were not: dynamic, decisive, energetic, inspiring and most importantly, a good role model. That course would‘ve been a joke if he hadn‘t been there.

This is great stuff. Thanks for starting the topic, Franko.

And thanks again, Caz, for nailing the problem. I was hoping you‘d weigh in on this thread.

 

[chalk1]

Good point. Ive learned, and have been influenced, much much more by ex- or currenly serving pers than by CIC. I know Franko can agree on this one. When Peter VanIderstine was RSm of Argonaut (96-2001, methinks), he was so highly respected by everyone there. His influence on the camp was immense, and the place hasnt been the same since...many would say it‘s worse.

 

[Caz]

I‘ve worked with some great RegF and PRes Chiefs in my short time... CWO Woodcock, CWO Lemon... inspiring gentleman.

Jason, I agree - ex-cadets should not go back to their unit right away. And COs need to exercise way more discretion when sponsoring ex-cadets into the CIC as soon as they age out. Some can handle it, but we‘ve all run into the OCdt that thinks they are still a WO2, and they are trying to be a flight commander at a summer training centre.

When I aged-out, I was gung-ho to go CIC right away. I went to a different unit, and out of my own choice, spent three years as a CI. Did I need that long away? Probably not. But is was very beneficial on my outlook, my leadership style, and how I task my senior cadets.

Everyone needs a break - if you spend five or seven years as a cadet, then go hard into the CIC, you‘ll burn out - and fast. It costs us too much in finacial and human resources to have this happen. Most people need to step back for at least a year and get some outside perspective before making that kind of commitment to our youth. A different unit, where possible, is a must; even a different element can help bring everything full circle.

Anyway... you want to make changes to how the cadet program operates? Do your research, and give constructive crticism on it. Chances are that when you research the decisions that DCdts and NDHQ and the Leagues make about the cadet programs, you‘ll at least be able to see the reason in their process - even if you don‘t agree with it.

-R.

 

[chalk1]

Caz, what would you say are the major leadership problems affecting the CIC? You mentioned Ocdts trying to do their former jobs, which i agree with because of my own encounters with them. What could be changed in the training of the CIC to better their leadership? And is starting from the top the best way?

 

[Caz]

I‘m glad you asked.

No, starting from the top isn‘t always the best way, but when you are trying to create a culture, it flows from the top.

Let‘s start here. Yes, the CIC run a youth program. That is our MOC. However, too many officers see their cap badge as a flag of convenience. If they don‘t view themselves as military, they won‘t act military, and although it is a youth program we run, we are Officers in the CF - we need to act as such, and be treated as such. Such simple things... how many officers at the LHQ are in violation of dress regs on a weekly basis? How many really know the heritage of their branch and element? If we being to train and feel like leaders, we will start to act like leaders.

Communication is always a problem. Part of this is because sometimes we don‘t get the right information. Other times, it is because we‘ve been trained to ask for it, but don‘t. Simple example: At one unit, every month, the Adm O has to track down the staff and get them to sign their pay docs. They shouldn‘t have to do that. The officers should know this, and are taught it on thier first mandatory course.

When I was on BOQ, I was impressed with the training. We were told repeatedly that we are military officers, no different than any other, with a special job. It doesn‘t mean that we don‘t act like military officers. It means that we have a wide variety of interactions to make with youth, parents, guardians, and the community. It was instilled in us that for many communities in Canada, the CIC is the only representation of the CF. Average joe doesn‘t see CIC vs an Armoured Officer; they just see a member of the CF and shiny gold braid.

Too many officers don‘t bring this back.

Our training is changing to - eventually - bring us within 75% leadership and IT capability as a PRes officer. Instead of focusing courses on rank progression, the writing boards are developing courses that focus on skill-set. Instead of having to take LTQ to get promoted to Lt, you‘re going to have to take Trg O, Adm O, and Instructor courses.

The scope of control at a unit is hard. The Unit COs are largely left on their own for a lot of decisions, and hesitate to contact their ACOs. The units all have a volunteer staff, and it is easier to tire out the officers than the cadets.

When new officers enrol, we need to make sure they understand the committment they are giving of thier time. You will have to go on course. You will have to work more than two days and a weekend a month. Your life will get interrupted - deal with it. You‘re an officer in the CF.

Essentially, we need a little esprit de corps.

-R.

 

[Franko]

Good points Rob.

If the COs are reluctant to enforce the rules and regs what should happen to them?

If the COs don‘t ask questions to the ACO and the corps starts to feel the impact as a whole, what should happen to him/her?

I do agree that the Esprit de corps is waining currently, have you see the"Fake Commission" write up thats being passed around lately?

If not I‘ll try to get it and post it here for ALL to see. It‘s really a bunch of whining crap made up by someone who isn‘t very secure in the role they play in the CF.

Regards

 

[Caz]

Unit COs need to be held more accountable. The thing is, no one in a unit is going to phone the ACO and say "Capt Bloggins doesn‘t wear his 3Bs properly!". If your staff isn‘t cohesive, your unit will fall apart.

I think Unit COs should need to be in closer contact with their advisors, Det commanders, and the RCO. If they don‘t do their jobs, they should face consequence. That goes for every officer of a unit that doesn‘t do thier job as perscribed by lawful authority, and common sense.

Sadly, that‘s also a way to get rid of a lot of mostly decent people that don‘t understand their role in the CF.

It‘s not just COs, though - other officers in the unit, by virtue of being officers, should be reponsible enough to research regulations. Too many people forget to look at the possible consequences if you don‘t do the job right - of course, the other side is the people who only focus on the possible consequences of any action, and thus become paranoid about doing anything (we can‘t go on field exercise! Someone might get hurt!)

Sometimes, I think every cadet unit should have a copy of CFOO 1.0.1 so we can see where we are supposed to fit in.

I have seen that "my commission is real" email that has gone around. Gets a lot of CIC feeling proud, but I agree - it has the tone of someone who hides behind a scroll, as opposed to taking responsibility for their job.

What we need to do is adjust the culture, so the officers at the unit do their research, and COs keep tabs without micromanaging, and ultilize their advisors and chain of command to the RCO. The schools are doing a good job, I think (at least the one in my region is), but the 2Lt that comes back from JOLC isn‘t the one that can totally instill the culture at the LHQ. The people in command at that level need to share the same vision.

It‘s something that should probably be in every Commanding Officers Conference.

I don‘t claim to have all the answers. I‘m still very wet behind the ears. However, I do know that it‘s amazing how much can be accomplished when people stop being afraid of asking questions, and actually communicate.

-R.

 

[True Canadian]

I think the Cadet Program should just scrap CHAP all together. Back in the day (at camp) when Cadets wouldn‘t shut up in ranks, or never made their bunk, they got a nice welt from the drill cane on their leg. That‘s the way it should be, if not abused that would work out good if you ask me, that way everyone would be serious when needed.

Also, the whole military part of Army Cadets has almost completely faded. It‘s going right down the toilet if you ask me. This whole; Adventure Orienteering thing is total BS, they think were having fun!?!? I have fun when we do night ops, or PT that actually physically challenges everyone. At my corps all with they exception of 2 of our senior NCO‘s are overweight useless tub of lards, that don‘t have enough stamina and energy to keep up with the GREEN STARS!!!!

I‘m sick of the poor leadership; but that‘s only one thing. The ARMY part of Army Cadets is deminishing, and it‘s all because of the parents! They just whine and complain about what‘s right for their kids, yet there bringing the correlation between Boy Scouts and Army Cadets closer and closer, and making it a lamer experience for their kid, WTF do they know anyway! They think there kid dosen‘t want to go fire off full-auto military gun and carry awesome Army equipment? Morons!

We need to keep Fieldcraft into Cadets, it‘s only taught in Green Star, and that‘s only very, very basic and primitive style of Fieldcraft, which isin‘t even that good. Another thing I have a problem with, is Canoeing, or however you spell it. WTF‘s up with that? Who the **** canoes in the military, now I‘m all for white water rafting, cuz that‘s awesome, it‘s just canooing???!!?!?! Come on!!

I remember my Officer at Vernon this summer was saying how back in like 92‘ when he was a cadet, they called it Junior Soldier, because that‘s practically what it was, and on ex‘s he‘d carry around a C9 (he was a big guy, like 6,4 280Ibs) and there were howitzers firing off artillery shells, and his section had to get to a certain position, and all there weapons were loaded with blanks. *drools*

That‘s the way Cadets should be.

 

[dano]

I would like to note some posts made so far that are of possible significance. (In my view)

Jason, excellent analysis of the League. I must say. Great points. Such a formal voice in the Civilian population is capital to help gear or change the "culture" of the Army Cadet league.

Caz, Generally speaking as I can be... We need CIC‘s as well for that matter persons involved in ADMIN to have the attitude as well as stead fast dedication that you have. Though I would disagree with myself on that, I can‘t help but feel we lack those figures in majority.

Okay! Now my input in to the subject matter.

Instead on giving what I think must be fixed (Many of which have already been addressed) I will give my input on what I have done to keep members interested as well as get the public interested.

In past posts I think I have introduced this, all should know anyway.
I have tried organizing optional activities where the corps can broaden their field leadership skills and abilities.

Where we would do this? Well the huge park right by the armories, where we have done them before.

But for some reason they we‘re cancelled. We nick named them Sunday EXs.

I have the plans set and ready... Its just when I send it up the chain of command, no one seems to "receive" it.
Nonetheless, that is one plan I have to directly effect the attitude and spirit for army cadets.

 

[elscotto937]

True Canadian, there is a whole lot of "wrong" in your comments. But I‘m going to assume that you were trying to spark debate, so I will do my best not to talk down to you.
Phyically, hitting a cadet with a drill cane, how would that ever work, the organization would devolve in to a group of thugs. Senior cadets have no legal authority over other cadets, in the strictest sense it is authority by consent. A good leader should not often have to raise his voice, let alone strike a subodinate. Ask yourself if you really know any cadets who would have enough self-control to be able to effectively deal out the punishment you are suggesting.
The other point I will cover is the Junior Soldiers comment....Cadets are a youth organization, not soldiers. Nor should they be. Any one who put a C9 or C7 into the hands of a cadet off the ranges, with blanks loaded.. should have his head on a pike. However, kids should be going to the field with thier affiliated unit, and conducting some of the activities. Like I said earlier there are things that can be done within the rules.

 

[Franko]

On the topic of striking a subordinate...if you do that you have lost ALL control of yourself AND your troops. You should be immediatly discharged after being found guilty. There is only one way I would ever strike a subordinate..if he struck me first.

True Canadian....Your officer at Vernon, was he on any prescription drugs when he made the statement"was saying how back in like 92‘ when he was a cadet, they called it Junior Soldier, because that‘s practically what it was, and on ex‘s he‘d carry around a C9 and there were howitzers firing off artillery shells, and his section had to get to a certain position, and all there weapons were loaded with blanks."

He is full of S H I T. There is no provision for cadets at camp to be issued a fully automatic weapon, never mind blanks. They stopped letting cadets do that grate stuff in ‘86-87. He is a liar, straight out. If the camp commander authorised this to be done he should be court marshalled and hung. As for being on a range with howitzer rounds flying over head, never in a zillion years. In the regs we have so many safety regs in place that we aren‘t allowed in a template when the guns are being fired unless it‘s a danger close exercise or level 5-7 live fire exercise. Even then, we‘re button up in the callsigns(tanks, Coyotes, LAVs, M113s)

Hate to burst your bubble, but he is WAY too young to have experienced what I did in the early to mid ‘80s.

There are some things that an affiliated unit can do now that are well within the guide lines. For instance, we had the top recruiter for our corps come out to the ranges and fire a Leopard, keep the caseing, and drive it as well. Everything was legit, clearances done, insurance papers, ACOs approval, safety lectures, instructions by range staff etc.

As for your officer from Vernon....Not a very good leader if you ask me.


Regards

 

[chalk1]

Nosuch thing as bad troops, just bad leaders.....

 

[y2kroachman]

problem with cadets that ive seen, is no matter how good you are, it is always someone thats friends with the warrant officer or sergeants that gets promoted, he could be the biggest dumbass ever and he would be giving you orders, what a croc of ****.

 

[Franko]

In every instance of my working with cadets, when it comes to promotion time the ONLY pers there are the staff, the affiliated unit reps,and the RSM. If someone wants to push someone up the chain they must press their case, reasons, examples and the like for the individual to get promoted. It‘s just like we do in the regs with merit boards, just on a smaller scale.

No WO or SGT has ever influenced my descision on promotion of a cadet, EVER! I go off records, assessments, hard assesments, and observations made by myself. If the cadet is a hard worker, on time and has their dress and deportment sorted out and has good bearing and demeanor..They are on my list. If they show promise in their abilities to lead..I push harder.

I know it doesn‘t work like this in every corps, but seeing how many officers are here on this forum, maybe a few ideas or suggestions here may find it‘s way into your corps.

You never know

Regards

 

[primer]

Franco: I do the same as you for promotions..We have 3 a year and their are certain criterias that must be met first.

 

[Franko]

Primer...good to hear. Glad to see there is some common sense in your corps! What corps is it? Where is it based out of?

Regards

 

[True Canadian]

You guys sound like a bunch of soccer-moms. If you don‘t want they army, don‘t join ARMY Cadets.

 

[elscotto937]

True Canadian, who exactly sounds like a soccer mom. Because I certainly don‘t think Primer and Franko discussing a fair system of advancement in thier cadet corps, would equate to "soccer moms"