Canadian Combat Action Badge - Now A Dead Idea (Merged Threads)

[The Six]

How do we tell whether a CF member spent his/her time in a mess hall at Kandahar, or on recce patrol?

How do we feel about a special badge in the spirit of the Combat Infantry Badge (US) to make it clear who really spent their time in the line of fire?

 

[George Wallace]

Too much like the Boy Scouts.

I am sure many remember when LFCA came out with the Warrior Badges, which soon spread Army wide. 

You can ususally tell who is who by their Hat Badge and the Gongs they wear on their DEUs.  What more badges do you need?



Out comes that old saying;  "We don't need no stinking Badges!"

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Yeah, that's what we need - more "us and them"...  We already have Regs vs. Reserves, combat arms vs CSS, French vs English, NDHQ vs everyone else, SOF vs the "wogs", why not add to it?

How do you define "line of fire"?  Does a rocket attack count?  Do only infantry get this shiny badge?  Who tracks who was where? What's the qualifying time?  How are you going to stop people from going down range simply to get this badge?

Frankly, a guy who is working 16 hours trying to get a Nyala back into service is doing as much for the mission as the guy at the "sharp end".  Saying anything else is a disservice to the entire CF and to the team we must be to be successful on operations.

BTW, I would likely "qualify" for one, so don't take this as a "REMF" ranting...

Terrible idea.

Edited to eliminate a run-on sentence

 

[Trinity]

How do we tell whether a CF member spent his/her time in a mess hall at Kandahar, or on recce patrol?

Are we to discriminate against the cooks because they're not infantry?


As I once heard someone say,  Quiet Professionalism. 

We do our jobs, we know we do our jobs, that's all that matters.  Glory hounds need not apply.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Too much like the Boy Scouts.

I am sure many remember when LFCA came out with the Warrior Badges, which soon spread Army wide. 

No one in Calgary wore them, as I recall.  LFWA was always pretty good at dispensing with useless kit; forage caps, Garrison Dress, etc.

 

[Chimo]

The Americans actually have two separate awards, the Combat Infantry Badge (CIB), awarded to Infantry soldiers involved in hostile fire and the fairly newly created Combat Action Badge (CAB) to recognize non-infantry soldiers involved in hostile fire.

Frankly I see no need for the CF to have any type of badge recognizing this type of service. our CSS pers go full out when deployed as does the rest of the Army team. I feel it drives a further wedge into the Us vs Them game. One Army One Fight. 

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The Americans actually have two separate awards, the Combat Infantry Badge (CIB), awarded to Infantry soldiers involved in hostile fire and the fairly newly created Combat Action Badge (CAB) to recognize non-infantry soldiers involved in hostile fire.

Frankly I see no need for the CF to have any type of badge recognizing this type of service. our CSS pers go full out when deployed as does the rest of the Army team. I feel it drives a further wedge into the Us vs Them game. One Army One Fight. 

There was a huge fight during WW II when US Army medics were initially denied the CIB despite serving in rifle companies.  The tankers, engineers and artillerymen also wondered why their services were being made secondary - as other posters have indicated, it would open up many cans of worms to introduce such a badge here. There are also a few older discussions in the archives here about it.

 

[medicineman]

Chimo - There is also the Combat Medical Badge for medics that have served in combat - used to have to be with infantry units, but that may have changed.

MM

 

[GO!!!]

I think it's a great idea.

A lack of pride and esprit de corps is a problem in our army, where commonality of uniforms and decorations does not accurately denote the military "resume" as is the case in other nations. A CIB or equivalent would also be extremely helpful identifying posers - serialise each one and put it in a national database.

I attribute this to the attitude predominant in many of these posts, that "all are soldiers, all are the same". While the mechanics and cooks who support the pointy end undoubtedly do a fine job, there is a huge difference between putting in long hours in the shop or kitchen trailer, and engaging the enemy with your personal weapon and winning. If the support trades are really that broken up about not having the pin, they are always more than welcome to go the OT route, and earn one. Each trade has it's perks, I think a pin recognising infanteers or others in the cbt arms who have seen action is a small one.

I consider this to be something akin to a wound stripe. Would you deny that this is a valuable decoration? You get injured by the enemy, you get one, it has nothing to do with discriminating or putting any one trade on a pedestal, it is about recognition for service.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pride in your accomplishments, pride in your abilities, and a desire to be recognised for fighting the enemies of your nation.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Read the regs, GO!!!, a wound stripe is NOT a decoration. So yeah, to answer your question, I would deny it.

And a cook can qualify for one as easy as an infantrymen, depending on where the rocket hits.

As for resumes - there was a lot of mirth when the cover of the Maple Leaf showed a 98 pound Leading Seaman wearing the newly-minted SW Asia medal, and our CSM at the time said "wow, must have been some job for her carrying a Gustav up and down those mountains."

But I think the comments on "quiet professionalism" are more on the mark - if you know what you did, what else matters? The rest is just insecurity.

 

[Infanteer]

Each trade has it's perks, I think a pin recognising infanteers or others in the cbt arms who have seen action is a small one.

In today's conflicts, CS/CSS trades have a good chance of getting engaged.  Would EME's, MSE Ops, etc, etc be eligible if their convoy got nailed and they fought off the ambush.

As well, what would qualify as action?   Does the engagement have to be a two-way range (ie: one engaged the enemy with their weapon) or does being in the camp when it got hit with a few rockets/mortar rounds count?

I'm really up in the air over this - I think if implemented correctly this is a nice way of recognizing that someone has "seen the elephant" (I also like service chevrons/wound stripes a la WWI) but I've read plenty of stories on how the issue of the CIB creates alot of resentment in the ranks when they start handing them out for less then conspicuous circumstances; this could be a heartache avoided by simply recognizing the fact that the cap badge should give most a good idea of what a soldier does when he is sent overseas.

Incidentally, the Australian Infantry Corps has a badge similar to this:
http://www.defence.gov.au/Army/RAINF/index

 

[Michael Dorosh]

In today's conflicts, CS/CSS trades have a good chance of getting engaged.  Would EME's, MSE Ops, etc, etc be eligible if their convoy got nailed and they fought off the ambush.

As well, what would qualify as action?   Does the engagement have to be a two-way range (ie: one engaged the enemy with their weapon) or does being in the camp when it got hit with a few rockets/mortar rounds count?

I'm really up in the air over this - I think if implemented correctly this is a nice way of recognizing that someone has "seen the elephant" (I also like service chevrons/wound stripes a la WWI)

Service Chevrons went to base area soldiers also - and IIRC soldiers in the UK were considered "overseas". So it wasn't a combat employment badge. It did serve to identify that you left the country on duty, but that was about it. We do that today with our medals. Wound Stripes are still on the books.

but I've read plenty of stories on how the issue of the CIB creates alot of resentment in the ranks when they start handing them out for less then conspicuous circumstances; this could be a heartache avoided by simply recognizing the fact that the cap badge should give most a good idea of what a soldier does when he is sent overseas.

A Patricia tasked as a bartender to the officers' mess on Cyprus wears the same cap badge as a Patricia engaged in combat in Afghanistan though, so I don't see how the cap badge will help.  Our RSS warrant wears the same cap badge as guys in firefights overseas.

I will agree with the resentment angle, as indicated earlier - combat medics in WW II saw as much "action" as the riflemen despite not shooting anybody.

 

[Wookilar]

  GO!!!, you have some good points and I certainly will not argue with you about the role of the CSS. My job, whether my old one or my soon to be new one, is to support the pointy end, not be the pointy end.
  However, the problem will be where to draw the line once the CIB genie is out of the bottle. Only combat arms? What about the sigs/ medics/various CSS troops that will be right beside an infantier on a LAV battle run? I fix a LAV III under fire and I get squat while the guys standing two feet away, watching my back so I can do my job, get an award? How about if "all you did" was guard the LZ, while everybody else was out on patrol, so the beautiful US Blackhawk could come back and pick up your tired @ss. Oh, and you're a clerk.
  I do not disagree with the idea of somekind of "battle honour" but there is no way that it could be restricted to certain trades/positions. The way you put it, it would be difficult for many Snr NCO's and Officers, that are vital to a units fighting effectiveness, to be eligable for such an award. Their boots just very rarely touch the ground or their fingers the triggers.
  All in all, I think that this is something better left alone. I understand the frustration of people getting the same medal as you while you know for a fact they did not have the same living conditions/threat levels/ etc. That is something that should be looked at and should be relatively easy to fix, but something like a CIB would be very problematic. And you know as well as I, some weiner that doesn't deserve it would get one, and the value of it would only go down till it is just something else to go on the CF's.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I consider this to be something akin to a wound stripe. Would you deny that this is a valuable decoration? You get injured by the enemy, you get one, it has nothing to do with discriminating or putting any one trade on a pedestal, it is about recognition for service.

But a CIB (or some such) is putting a certain group on a pedestal.  I go back to my original point:  what's the cut off for the award?  Large numbers of CSS pers have become casualties in Iraq (I've been told, but cannot confirm, that they're 60% of all casualties there), yet don't qualify for such a badge.  Wookilar makes some very good points that hit this right on the head.

A lack of pride and esprit de corps is a problem in our army, where commonality of uniforms and decorations does not accurately denote the military "resume" as is the case in other nations.

In the US Army (caveat:  unless the "Combat Action Badge" is actually in place), it is impossible to determine - outside the infantry - who has seen action and who has not.  Combat patches are awarded for service throughout the CENTCOM AOR and tankers, engineers, MPs (who do convoy escort in the US Army) don't qualify for the CIB.  How do you tell who's who then?  The Brits have no such badge and they don't seem to have this "issue" with who's service is more valuable than who's.

Again, IMHO, it is divisive and nearly impossible to implement in an equitable manner.  I know a great deal of this bitterness and penchant for badges stems from the decision to award the SWASM for OP APOLLO to all units in theatre (right GO!!?).  However, surely Infanteer has the right of it:  a cap badge + a tour medal usually gives a pretty good indication of what the individual has done - why do we need yet another badge?

 

[GO!!!]

Michael,

Forgive my brief foray into your world of military minutiae. The gist of the question was that if we can have a universal wound stripe, why not a universal cbt badge for ground forces, or people serving with them?

Infanteer,

I would lean towards two badges, as the US has done. The CSS types who fought off/through an ambush or defended their base perimeter deserve recognition, but this is inherently different from being helo'd in as the QRF to perform an attack/counter attack/raid/advance to contact or other aggressive action as members of 1 VP have done numerous times in the recent past.

The EN contacts that different support trades encounter are usually quite different than the ones that the 031s encounter or in fact, create.

I would say that the Cbt badge could be issued to anyone who has returned fire who is not an infanteer, while the CIB would be reserved for infanteers, to denote an actual enemy engagement. This could also be extended to attachments like, say the coy signaller, who is a sigs MCpl. Since he is doing the same job, he would get one, while the coy clerk who stayed at the base might not, or might get the Cbt badge instead.

 

[George Wallace]

The EN contacts that different support trades encounter are usually quite different than the ones that the 031s encounter or in fact, create.

That is not true as we are seeing in Afghanistan today.  The 031s are no different than the other trades when it comes to IED's.  MCpl Franklin was not 031.  Nor were many of the other injured. 

Michael's point about the PPCLI Cpl working in the Officers Mess was out to lunch also.  That Cpl may have worked in the Mess, but if bullets started to fly, he would have a designated position to fill in the Camp Defence, as would any of the Mechanics, Cooks, Sigs, etc. 

If you want to talk Vietnam era and the Combat Infantry Badge, then I ask again along the same lines; were all the personnel in those Fire Bases Infantry only?

You guys are arguing about 'trinkets'.  If I see a soldier in a PPCLI, RCD, RCR, LdSH (RC),  R22R, RCHA, or whatever hatbadge wearing a SWASM, I know who he is and what he has done.  If I see an Log Col in Ottawa with a CD ribbon and nothing else, I know what he has not done.

Do we need tattoos on our foreheads to make some people happy?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Michael,

Forgive my brief foray into your world of military minutiae. The gist of the question was that if we can have a universal wound stripe, why not a universal cbt badge for ground forces, or people serving with them?

And the gist of the answer has been given multiple times.  Incidentally, if it is just "minutiae" why are you still here discussing it - indeed, proposing it?  Is it important - or isn't it?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

That is not true as we are seeing in Afghanistan today.  The 031s are no different than the other trades when it comes to IED's.  MCpl Franklin was not 031.  Nor were many of the other injured. 

Michael's point about the PPCLI Cpl working in the Officers Mess was out to lunch also.  That Cpl may have worked in the Mess, but if bullets started to fly, he would have a designated position to fill in the Camp Defence, as would any of the Mechanics, Cooks, Sigs, etc. 

You're not getting the point; I'm not talking about what someone MIGHT have done, we are talking about recognizing what HAS been done. I personally know a fellow who worked the bar in Cyprus. He wore the same badge as the infantrymen.  Are you denying that there is a HUGE variance in combat/operational experience even among personnel in any regular or reserve regiment? The point is that the cap badge is not a valid indicator of that - how is that out to lunch? Even a tour medal doesn't tell you what a person did on tour.

Are we now going to give medals and badges out for what someone is trained to do, as opposed to what they actually have done?

Out to lunch indeed.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I would say that the Cbt badge could be issued to anyone who has returned fire who is not an infanteer, while the CIB would be reserved for infanteers, to denote an actual enemy engagement.

.....and how about a CAB (Combat Armoured Badge) which would be reserved for crewmen, to denote an actual enemy engagement. Or would they just get the Combat Badge, even though they also closed with and attacked the enemy, but are not Infantry. If just the Combat Badge, what badge would the 031's get that were crewing the LAV's in the same engagement? Same as the Armoured or the same as the other 031's? Guess it's not so cut and dry.

 

[GO!!!]

As for the little bit about badges for what we are trained to do, but never do operationally - we have not performed a parachute op, or ppf ops  since WWII, should we stop awarding wings and torches until those who finished the course actually do it for real?

Of course not. The point is, cap badges, SWASM's, Bronze Stars (eh pbi?  ) mean very little when every swinging dick gets one. In the case of the Bronze Stars, only the snipers earned theirs, the others were given out to the officers and CSMs as additional recognition of their positions.

A CIB/CB would be valuable because there would be no "back door" method of getting it. Either you returned fire or you did'nt. In the Navy? Build loads for shipping in Trenton? Coy CQ? Great, thank you for your service, but you did not shoot anyone (or try to). THAT is what a combat badge is for. It is so that people who have been on an intimate two way range can be recognised for it. It is not to make others feel bad, it is to recognise the guys who actually fought as fighters.

I see alot of "sour grapes" in this thread - people upset that they may not have the chance to get another pin, and crapping all over the idea. As I said earlier, every trade has it's perks. Why are you so hostile to the idea of recognition for those who actually do the killing?