Bring back the Brig?

[FSTO]

We finally got the release message for a problem sailor and there are a bunch more kicking around here that if they don't pull up their socks will be the next to go down that road. I am a firm believer in consequences for actions and after seeing all the BS punishments that go on around here, I think that the CF Detention Barracks in Edmonton should be filled to the rafters.
Failing that, then Esquimalt and Halifax should re-open their Brigs and have those defaulters running about the base in coveralls doing drill. cleaning stations, picking up garbage, (Have any of you seen the amount of weeds growing at Nelles block?).

A little bit of embarassement and hard work would maybe cure these guys of slack and idle attitude!

Oh here's a thought, why don't we make St. Jean tougher so that these malcontents would get the message sooner and release before we have to take care of it on the coast!

 

[mo-litia]

Yes. Please.  Should have been done years ago.  ;D

 

[bbereziuk]

Just for the sake of clarification.  What in this case constitutes a 'problem sailor'?  Are we talking minor charges, consistant poor behaviour, or just outright silliness of the highest calabre?  What justifies locking up a member these days?

 

[FSTO]

Just for the sake of clarification.  What in this case constitutes a 'problem sailor'?  Are we talking minor charges, consistant poor behaviour, or just outright silliness of the highest calabre?  What justifies locking up a member these days?

You tell me? Drug use, insubordination, drunkeness, failure to meet musters etc.  We can give a person up to 14 days confined to Barracks. But they still have all their TV, Internet and other privlages that members living in have. 2 weeks in cells with no TV would cure a lot of bad behaviour IMO.

 

[bbereziuk]

Well.. if your problem sailor covered all of those bases.. I agree with you completely.  Insubordination, drunkeness, and all that crap is pretty poisonous stuff if its not quashed.  I ask you this though:  Can't a commanding officer issue disciplinary service similar to what you described? (picking up garbage... extra drill.. etc.).  If the answer is yes.... then why doesn't it happen?  If no... then I guess we suck, don't we?

Please advise.

 

[George Wallace]

......  We can give a person up to 14 days confined to Barracks. But they still have all their TV, Internet and other privlages that members living in have. 2 weeks in cells with no TV would cure a lot of bad behaviour IMO.

Things are rather nice in your part of the world.  Our people on CB have Extra Duties/extra 'Training', Drill, Change Parades/Inspections and long hours working on their Kit, to aid in their 'professional development'.  They are sometimes allowed a radio.  No time for watching TV or surfing the Net.  They are allowed to go to Church on Sunday, but other than that they are constantly under supervision.

 

[FSTO]

Well.. if your problem sailor covered all of those bases.. I agree with you completely.  Insubordination, drunkeness, and all that crap is pretty poisonous stuff if its not quashed.  I ask you this though:  Can't a commanding officer issue disciplinary service similar to what you described? (picking up garbage... extra drill.. etc.).  If the answer is yes.... then why doesn't it happen?  If no... then I guess we suck, don't we?

Please advise.

I'm not the one making these decisions, personnaly I think that the presiding officers have been made gun-shy by JAG and civilian lawyers. Send the bad ones to Edmonton or to actual punishment duty and put the onus on accused to prove the punishment is too harsh. Many CO don't want to go through the hassel, but they are more than willing to put up with PERS Files and Charge Sheets inches thick!

 

[Cloud Cover]

They used to drag a cannon across the parade square all day long. Now its an elite team doing that job.

 

[Bobbyoreo]

Heard of a few stories from Halifax and the drug abuse going on there. Went out there to see a friend and saw it first hand. Just think people are turning a blind eye to this stuff now. Dont know about any of you but thats the last thing I want near me ..is a drug user.. no thanks!! Bring back the brig!!!

 

[bbereziuk]

You know.. that's an interesting comment.  Amazingly.. drugs are a real, frigg'n big issue.  I'm not sure if its just the Navy.. but I've definitely seen a bit while going through officer training.  One guy just disappeared, and then it turned up that he was going in to town to pick up meth. (He disappeared while back at his reserve unit, so they just released him rather than send out the MPs)  While I've seen others being blatant pot-heads.

One comment:  The ranks have just instituted a system where a senior member of the ranks (usually a master seaman) will monitor barracks on evenings and weekends, and will act as a bit of a mentor to junor ranks members on training.  They're there to address issued such as drug use, alcoholism, and apparantly simple stuff like personal hygene. (this is according to a chief from Ottawa who gave us a PD lecture on the topic last Fall).  Now.. if that program is actually going on.. THERE is a concept that would really benefit JOUTS.  Despite being future officers.. many of the guys I trained with came from a TERRIBLE quality of life, either as students or with their families.  Of course, alcoholism and drug use carried over to their military careers... despite regulations against them.  What does it take to get a Lt(N) to go down to Venture and act as a informal mentor/ babysitter on weekends for the dopes that do dope?  I've seen some very good people get lost to crappy life-style choices before the age of 22.

-- Glad to get it off my chest.. Thanks for the sounding board.

 

[Navalsnpr]

But they still have all their TV, Internet and other privlages that members living in have.

When personnel are under punishment aka "Birds" in Halifax, they move into the "Personnel Under Punishment" room, which has no telephone, Internet, TV etc. All it has is a desk, locker, bed and all the members uniforms laid out as per Boot Camp.

Mind you, that is good for first offences, second or more severe... then cell time should be ordered.

Agreed that Boot Camp needs some more..."boot in the arse"!!! Time to put the Military back in the Service...

 

[Michael OLeary]

Heard of a few stories from Halifax and the drug abuse going on there. Went out there to see a friend and saw it first hand. Just think people are turning a blind eye to this stuff now. Dont know about any of you but thats the last thing I want near me ..is a drug user.. no thanks!! Bring back the brig!!!

Just out of curiosity, how many of those offences you observed "first hand" did you report to the Military Police?

 

[Melbatoast]

I think this comes down to the fact that it is pretty much impossible to fire anyone from the CF, or at least the Navy.  We're too desperate to keep asses in the seats, and the "firing" process is so biased in the problem member's favour that he can be such a poor performer over the course of a career that it would make your average taxpayer weep.  If people like that worked at McDonalds, they wouldn't last half a shift, yet they can milk 20 years and a pension out of the CF.

Didn't everyone sign some sort of waiver swearing off drug use on joining?  Why are these guys getting 21 days birds and a free 8 week vacation at Edgewood instead of getting booted out?  It happens in the US armed forces.  I hate to use words like "enabling," but this touchy/feely stuff is doing just that.  A young OD on my ship who has already been to Edgewood just got 15 days birds and a fairly small fine after going on a three day bender - I don't think anything more is going to happen, even though presumably he's on C&P from detox.

This is absolutely my biggest beef with the Navy, you may be able to tell.

Incidentally, we had some stuff stored in the old intel building in Dockyard, which was also the old Dockyard jail.  The cells are still there, and tiny, and dismal.  That would shake 'em up a bit.

 

[George Wallace]

Well.  At the looks of it, it is not the lack of the Brig that is the problem, but the leadership.  On one coast people are going on 14 day holidays, on the other they are doing 'Extra Drill and Training'  ;D  It appears that it is the will of the people laying the Charges and administering them to ensure that the punishment is carried out correctly that must be addressed, not the need for the Brig. 

The problems of getting rid of problem personnel is not really the fear of being caught short handed, as much as it fear of Legal Action being taken by some Barrack Room Lawyer and a good Civie Lawyer defending his position on Release. 

 

[RowdyBowdy]

When personnel are under punishment aka "Birds" in Halifax, they move into the "Personnel Under Punishment" room, which has no telephone, Internet, TV etc. All it has is a desk, locker, bed and all the members uniforms laid out as per Boot Camp.

Mind you, that is good for first offences, second or more severe... then cell time should be ordered.

Agreed that Boot Camp needs some more..."boot in the arse"!!! Time to put the Military back in the Service...

We have  "birds" or "defaulters" rooms in nelles block esquimalt as well.  I agree with all of you who say we are too slack, the navy seems to be way too tolerant.

 

[Melbatoast]

Well.  At the looks of it, it is not the lack of the Brig that is the problem, but the leadership.  On one coast people are going on 14 day holidays, on the other they are doing 'Extra Drill and Training'

When I was a Nelles (not too long ago...) birds was pretty bad, certainly not a vacation.  They had plenty of extra drill and training, change parades, picking up garbage, you name it.  No TV, no internet and confined to the MUP room.  I can't see that having changed, because they're really on a tradition kick over there these days, what with a full Colours ceremony every day and so forth.

The biggest problem is that when you get to Nelles from St. Jean is that you are essentially free to do whatever you want on your own time with no structure and no guidance at all, especially as you will be waiting on PAT for any period of time.

They've been talking about for a while now instituting a "welcome to the Navy" program at CFFS(E) for the PATs, where you spend every day of your first few weeks till 2100 (after "working" at your school) or so learning about the Navy.  I don't know if it's off the ground yet or what.

 

[Navalsnpr]

Part of the problem is that upon entry at 18 years of age, people are making $30K a year and are right out of high school and just go nuts with their new fortune.

The attitude of the younger society has another part in this as many of them (not all) think of this as a 9-5 job. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

As for the comment that it is impossible to kick anyone out... Not at all... the possibility it there, its the supervisors jobs to ensure that everything is documented correctly. If documentation is correct, then it becomes very easy for the front door to swing the other way. Mind you the other options hopefully prevent release from happening... I'm speaking of Verbal Warning, Recorded Warning, C&P, Charges and Courts Marshall.

 

[QV]

Part of the problem is that upon entry at 18 years of age, people are making $30K a year and are right out of high school and just go nuts with their new fortune....

So .... cut the pay back to $14,000 a year starting salary?  That won't encourage people to join the CF.  Part of the problem in Esquimalt is that when the sailors get there from basic to start there trades training, its treated like a college environment by the base.  The barracks in Nelles are more akin to coed college dorms then military training barracks.  There are little or no inspections, actually I didn't see any inspections going on there ever in my 3.5 years posted right across the street (except for PLQ of course).  And 90% of the people living there are on there QL3 !!!  The problem lies with the staff in Esquimalt.  It would not take long to bring back the military to those "troubled" young recruits, but when you're treated more like college coeds then sailors the command should expect them to act like college coeds.

 

[Bobbyoreo]

"Just out of curiosity, how many of those offences you observed "first hand" did you report to the Military Police?"

Your right I turned a blind eye cause it was not my problem. Should have done something but I dont see a working system. This past summer 05 in Borden a guy that I was with in the waiting plt got caught with Coke, Roids and many other drugs and he is still in the forces.
I guess i was thought if they never did anything to this guy what would they do to these few in Halifax. My bad, I should have reported them.

 

[George Wallace]

Your right I turned a blind eye cause it was not my problem. Should have done something but I dont see a working system. This past summer 05 in Borden a guy that I was with in the waiting plt got caught with Coke, Roids and many other drugs and he is still in the forces.
I guess i was thought if they never did anything to this guy what would they do to these few in Halifax. My bad, I should have reported them.

Did you give any thought to the fact that they may in fact be doing something with this guy?  The wheels of to Justice System turn awful slowly at times, even in the Military.  Perhaps, you will be called in the future to appear at a Courts Martial as a witness for or against him.