Biden issues blanket pardon to troops expelled from the military for their sexuality

[dimsum]

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/26/g-s1-6364/biden-pardon-troops-lgbtqi-sexuality

For some reason I thought US military LGBT+ members were already pardoned.

 

[brihard]

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/26/g-s1-6364/biden-pardon-troops-lgbtqi-sexuality

For some reason I thought US military LGBT+ members were already pardoned.

Excellent. It’s disgusting and shameful how many loyal and dedicated people both of our countries kicked out of their nations’ service over that ass-backwards neanderthal thinking.

 

[KevinB]

Excellent. It’s disgusting and shameful how many loyal and dedicated people both of our countries kicked out of their nations’ service over that ass-backwards neanderthal thinking.

The problem with that thinking, it that was the law of the land at that time. Right or wrong, it was the law, and they had knowingly broken it.

 

[brihard]

The problem with that thinking, it that was the law of the land at that time. Right or wrong, it was the law, and they had knowingly broken it.

In this context I completey reject that take. It holds no more worth than, and is no more defensible than, racial segregation. Plenty of things have been ‘the law’ but also completely immoral.

 

[dimsum]

The problem with that thinking, it that was the law of the land at that time. Right or wrong, it was the law, and they had knowingly broken it.

In a similar vein, plenty of folks lied about their age to join in WWI and WWII. That was also against the law then, but no one seems to say that they should have been kicked out.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The problem with that thinking, it that was the law of the land at that time. Right or wrong, it was the law, and they had knowingly broken it.

So did all the volunteers in WW2 that lied about their age; the number of kids or or 18-20 year olds buried in the D-Day cemetery is pretty sobering.

This really just seems like a pardon for anyone convicted of having gay sex and released accordingly, which I'm sure stops people from getting jobs or otherwise carrying on with their life. Seems like a better use of the power of presidential pardon compared to a lot of others.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"It was the law of the time".

"It was the law, but it was wrong".

Huh. Never heard that debate before.

 

[brihard]

"It was the law of the time".

"It was the law, but it was wrong".

Huh. Never heard that debate before.

Do you have any larger point you’d like to make on the specific subject at hand? Or do you generally agree that sometimes groups of people are treated by their states as less human based on certain immutable characteristics, and that in the fullness of time this should be corrected to the extent possible once society pulls its head out of its ass?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Do you have any larger point you’d like to make on the specific subject at hand? Or do you generally agree that sometimes groups of people are treated by their states as less human based on certain immutable characteristics, and that in the fullness of time this should be corrected to the extent possible once society pulls its head out of its ass?

Yeah. The "larger point" is to learn to recognize when the state is treating people unequally/unfairly in real-time instead of decades down the road, to admit it, and not to cling to "the law is the law" when it's immoral, contorted, or unequally applied.

 

[brihard]

Yeah. The "larger point" is to learn to recognize when the state is treating people unequally/unfairly in real-time instead of decades down the road, to admit it, and not to cling to "the law is the law" when it's immoral, contorted, or unequally applied.

Obviously I see where you’re trying to go with this but I’m not gonna contribute to moving this particular discussion off topic.

 

[Blackadder1916]

The problem with that thinking, it that was the law of the land at that time. Right or wrong, it was the law, and they had knowingly broken it.

If it was the "law of the land" at that time, how many were tried, convicted and dishonourably discharged for getting (or giving) a "bl** job" to/from a person of the opposite sex? It was also illegal under the same UCMJ article.

51. Article 125—Sodomy
a. Text of statute.(a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete the offense.
(b) Any person found guilty of sodomy shall by punished as a court-martial may direct.
. . .
c. Explanation. It is unnatural carnal copulation for a person to take into that person’s mouth or anus the sexual organ of another person or of an animal; or to place that person’s sexual organ in the mouth or anus of another person or of an animal; or to have carnal copulation in any opening of the body, except the sexual parts, with another person; or to have carnal copulation with an animal.

 

[mariomike]

In a similar vein, plenty of folks lied about their age to join in WWI and WWII. That was also against the law then,

The RCN took my father in 1943 when he was 17. It was all above board.

Not a lawyer, but even if he had lied about his age - would that have been against the law then?

I thought they just sent them home ( in most cases ), and told them to come back when older.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Obviously I see where you’re trying to go with this but I’m not gonna contribute to moving this particular discussion off topic.

On topic: the pardons are absurdly overdue.

In general: blanket pardons ought be issued almost always when a law is removed. If a law or an application of it was an illiberal mistake, fix the problem all the way.

More general: laws tend to follow culture. Sometimes it's difficult to jump off a bandwagon, but the first step is recognizing when one is on one.

 

[brihard]

On topic: the pardons are absurdly overdue.

In general: blanket pardons ought be issued almost always when a law is removed. If a law or an application of it was an illiberal mistake, fix the problem all the way.

More general: laws tend to follow culture. Sometimes it's difficult to jump off a bandwagon, but the first step is recognizing when one is on one.

That’s all pretty fair.

 

[mariomike]

The Recruiting MO asked me, "Do you like girls?"

 

[SeaKingTacco]

That’s all pretty fair.

Which laws do we have on the books now that will be judged poorly in 3-5 decades?

 

[QV]

The obvious start to that question is any law that allows un-equal treatment based on any immutable characteristics.