Australia's C27J Spartan tactical airlifters (updates)

[CougarKing]

The Royal Australian AF seems eager to get their 1st C27:

Defense News

MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA — The head of Australia’s New Airlift Project Office revealed the maiden flight of Australia’s first C-27J Spartan tactical airlifter will occur in Italy in mid-November, two months ahead of schedule.

Australia is buying 10 C-27Js under Project AIR 8000 Phase 2 via a Foreign Military Sales agreement with the United Sates. L-3 Communications is the prime contractor and the first Spartan is due to be handed over at L-3s facility in Waco, Texas, in the second half of next year.

Group Capt. Warren Bishop, who heads New Airlift Project Office, also said the project was on time and on budget, despite the United States Air Force divesting itself of its C-27J fleet.

“The project remains on schedule, the FMS case contracting processes are on schedule, the US Air Force program for contracting the prime contractors to deliver training is also on schedule and on-task and we’re relatively happy,” he said.

“The US Air Force is divesting itself of its C-27J capability but we knew that before the project started and we analyzed what risks that posed to us. We have determined that it actually does not impact on us at all, we were going to operate the aircraft organically anyway.”

Three Australian C-27Js will remain in the United States — the first, second and fifth airframes — to carry out initial air and ground crew training. The first aircraft delivered to Australia — aircraft three and four off the line — are expected to arrive in March 2015.The Commonwealth of Australia has also signed an interim three-year support contract with L-3 to cover support and training until an indigenous Trough Life Support contract is negotiated with Australian industry.

(...)

 

[Shrek1985]

Do we want the American ones?

 

[dimsum]

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/raaf-crews-start-working-with-c-27j-407359/

“A total of 10 aircraft will be delivered over the next two years, operated by No. 35 Squadron initially from RAAF Base Richmond,” says air commodore Mike Kitcher. “The C-27J will integrate seamlessly with existing Defence transports such as Army’s CH-47 Chinooks and Air Force’s C-130J Hercules and C-17A Globemaster III.”

They basically fill the gap that the DHC-4 Caribou left.

 

[Zoomie]

Confusing article -are these the USAF boneyard tails or fresh off the line?  The story mentions Italy but then Waco, Texas in the same paragraph.  Foreign Military Sales (FMS) usually refers to US DOD selling assets to foreign countries - if these tails are fresh out of Italy, they have nothing to do with the US DOD...  Head hurts...

 

[Spencer100]

The airframes are new.  Alena and L3 set up a final assembly line in Waco to build the plane for the US army and Airforce.  But Air Force ditched the plane and program.  The aircraft that were produced went to the Coast Guard.  Alena told the US that they would not honour the warranties or support the spares if they were sold to someone else not inside of the US government. 

 

[dimsum]

The airframes are new.  Alena and L3 set up a final assembly line in Waco to build the plane for the US army and Airforce.  But Air Force ditched the plane and program.  The aircraft that were produced went to the Coast Guard.  Alena told the US that they would not honour the warranties or support the spares if they were sold to someone else not inside of the US government.

....so, the RAAF just got 10 airframes without the parent company honouring their warranties and/or spares? 

 

[CBH99]

No. 

From my understanding, that agreement pertained to the aircraft ordered by the US government.  When the USAF divested itself of the aircraft, the agreement stipulated that they just remain in US government service in order for the warranties & service contracts to still be honoured.  Hence the aircraft going to the US Coast Guard. 

I believe the aircraft ordered by the RAAF would have been a totally seperate sale, not tied in with the US government sale at all. 

 

[OTR1]

CBH is correct - there is no connection between the US and Oz programmes.

More than one old and bold RAAF Caribou dude would have preferred new-build turbo 'Bous from Viking, with glass cockpit, et al, than the Spartan.

Not to be, sadly.  :-[

 

[Infanteer]

Why is that?

Although I understand the logic behind the Spartan (reduce the burden on the helicopter fleet), I can't see why one wouldn't just purchase more C-130s....

 

[dimsum]

Why is that?

Although I understand the logic behind the Spartan (reduce the burden on the helicopter fleet), I can't see why one wouldn't just purchase more C-130s....

The quick and dirty answer I was given was that the C-130J doesn't have the short takeoff/landing ability they need to get in/out of isolated airfields in Papua New Guinea and the like.  As OTR1 alluded to, the C-27J may have the same issue. 

 

[OTR1]

.......the C-130J doesn't have the short takeoff/landing ability they need to get in/out of isolated airfields.......the C-27J may have the same issue.

Bingo.  :nod:

 

[Infanteer]

Hmm...sounds like something an amphib and sea-based helicopters can fix....

 

[OTR1]

Pfft!, Mr Infanteer, Sir, Pfft! 

No mere helo can do this.............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcmabmOJvh4

8)

 

[Retired AF Guy]

More than one old and bold RAAF Caribou dude would have preferred new-build turbo 'Bous from Viking, with glass cockpit, et al, than the Spartan.

Do these new-build Caribous from Viking actually exist???

 

[Zoomie]

No such beast as a NG Caribou or Buffalo.  Pipe dream of Viking Air.  They are far too busy building the -400 Twotter.

 

[YZT580]

Viking has the designs for a pressurized a/c with the same speed as the C27 and the same lift capabilities as the DH5 but they just can't find someone to pay for building one.  Without a demo, no one will even look at it. It is the same problem that made the original DH5 a great airplane that no one wanted.  It wasn't made in the states and it didn't do 500 knots so the US didn't want it (after helicopters became the only game in town thanks to MASH) and in Europe there is very little need for an a/c that considers 1000 feet to be twice as much runway as needed. No one else could afford it or they only wanted one or two.  Canada won't underwrite the costs of development and even if we did, we wouldn't buy enough to justify the production line and, back to the start, no one else would buy. So the a/c languishes on paper. 

For comparison, think of the water bombers that Bombardier makes.  It is a great airplane with tons of possibilities but a niche market so they build what one or two a year.  That doesn't make for a very good business case.

 

[Zoomie]

Viking has the designs for a pressurized a/c with the same speed as the C27 and the same lift capabilities as the DH5 but they just can't find someone to pay for building one. 

They have an idea - not quite in the design phase.  They want a financial backing so that they can take their dreams and see if they work on paper.  They own the design rights to the original DHC-5, as soon as you change the shape of the fuselage (round vice square), adjust the sweep of the wing - you no longer have the certification of the original airplane.

 

[YZT580]

I very much suspect that the people in the drafting shop have taken it a few steps into the concept development phase.  After all, drafting minor changes to the otter 40 hours per week can't be all that much of a challenge. When they were petitioning the govt for a sole source contract to supply sar a/c the time line they were working with would not have allowed a full scale design project so they must have had an idea of where they were going and what they would have to do to get there.  They also had several signed letters of intent that would have pushed things a little bit more.  No finished blueprints perhaps but certainly a lot more than theories imho.

 

[Zoomie]

When they were petitioning the govt for a sole source contract to supply sar a/c the time line they were working with would not have allowed a full scale design project so they must have had an idea of where they were going and what they would have to do to get there. 

This is the reason why no-one in the RCAF took Viking's idea seriously.  They wanted to play in the big leagues yet couldn't even come up with a working demonstrator.  Their initials plans were for the RCAF to give them a -115 airframe that they could retrofit into an NG - pretty hard to retrofit a square fuselage into a round one. This is something that they realized when they next said that they would install a pressure capsule for the flight deck only - thus eliminating the square/round conundrum.  Next step, how to make it go faster?