A Canadian White Ensign proposal

[Gorgo]

I realise this might be a little late as the Naval Centennial did come to an end about 2 1/2 months ago (but maybe we could push it ahead for 2015 and the 50th anniversary of the Maple Leaf flag), but I came up with an idea to introduce a new Canadian White Ensign when I was writing a story over the last month or so.  I'll enclose it with this message to garnish some opinions.

Properly, this flag would be described thus:  Argent, a slender St George's Cross azure, the National Flag of the Dominion of Canada in the first quarter proper.

Using blue on the cross (the South Africans, after they introduced their new flag in 1994, switched the colour of the cross on their White Ensign to match the green of their flag) would, atop preventing the flag from using WAY too much red, serve two purposes.  One, it harkens back to the old White Ensign and the blue in the Union Jack on the flag, thus linking the past to the present.  Two, it would symbolise the sea and Canada's dependance on maritime trade . . . and the need to have a navy to protect said trade.

And for the cynics, yes it could also pay tribute to Québec as the shade here roughly matches the shade on the background of the Fleurdelisé.

My idea for introducing the new Ensign would see it used in the same way the old Ensign was used:  as the maritime war flag of the Dominion.  With it, you no longer need the Maritime Command jack as that would be automatically replaced by the National Flag of Canada (just as Britain, Australia, New Zealand and the rest of them do it).  The Command jack would, in essence, go back to being the personal command flag of the Chief of the Maritime Staff.

Opinions?

(BTW, a big nod to Kuld von Reyn at the Alternate History discussion board for doing the graphics work here)

 

[Edward Campbell]

And there is something very, very wrong with the Navy's current white ensign?

 

[Privateer]

We have a Navy Jack, which is only flown from the jack staff at anchor, when alongside, etc.  I believe that this proposal is to replace the Canadian Flag as the flag flown when underway, with the Canadian Flag replacing the current Navy Jack.

 

[Container]

And there is something very, very wrong with the Navy's current white ensign?

I love that ensign. I would be upset if it changed.

 

[Gorgo]

We have a Navy Jack, which is only flown from the jack staff at anchor, when alongside, etc.  I believe that this proposal is to replace the Canadian Flag as the flag flown when underway, with the Canadian Flag replacing the current Navy Jack.

As Privateer just said, the current flag people are familiar with is the Maritime Command JACK.

For those who DON'T know this, the MARCOM Jack is the flag that is flown at the BOW (in other words, the FRONT end) of the ship, not the STERN (the back end).

When a ship is docked, the Jack is flown from colours at 0800 hours to sunset.  The National Flag serves as the ENSIGN, which is what is flown at the stern of the ship, again raised at 0800 hours at Colours and lowered at sunset.

But when the ship is UNDERWAY AT SEA, the Jack is taken down and all that's flown from the ship is the National Flag as the ship's Ensign, either at the stern in calm weather or at the mainmast in more inclement weather.

The ONLY time the Jack is flown is (as people will remember from the International Fleet Reviews back last year) is during special ceremonial occasions (such as when H.M.C.S. St. John's served as the Queen's flagship during the Halifax Review).

I've personally got nothing against the MARCOM Jack.  BUT it is NOT the official NAVY WAR ENSIGN for Canadian warships bearing the Queen's Commission.  The National Flag of Canada serves as that.  I think that's wrong and requires to be changed.  And believe it or not, a lot of people (especially those who want to get the "Royal" title back into the Canadian Navy) want something similar.

What I proposed at the start of this discussion was just one idea for such an Ensign.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I've personally got nothing against the MARCOM Jack.  BUT it is NOT the official NAVY WAR ENSIGN for Canadian warships bearing the Queen's Commission.  The National Flag of Canada serves as that. 

And is this somehow not working or incorrect in a heraldic connotation?

I think that's wrong and requires to be changed. 

Why? Is there a justification other than personal preference?

And believe it or not, a lot of people (especially those who want to get the "Royal" title back into the Canadian Navy) want something similar.

Source?  Or is this just your opinion as well? We easily surround ourselves with those who agree with us on opinion-based issues (both in the real world and in on-line interactions), but just because everyone you speak to agrees doesn't mean its necessarily a majority opinion. Or one shared by those who have the authority to make the requisite decisions for change.

 

[Gorgo]

And is this somehow not working or incorrect in a heraldic connotation?

It does work, but it doesn't match what the Canadian Navy served under from 1910-1965, especially during the Second World War.  Like the Royal Navy (who fly the Union Jack at the bow of their warships and the White Ensign at the stern), the Royal Australian Navy (who fly the Blue Commonwealth Southern Cross Flag [a.k.a. the National Flag of Australia] at the bow and a WHITE version of that flag at the stern of their warships) and the Royal New Zealand Navy (which does the very same type of thing for their warships as their neighbours across the Tasman Sea), I think we should go back to something similar.

Using a national flag as the ensign for a warships and a modified flag as the jack is something the Americans have always done, not us.

Source?  Or is this just your opinion as well? We easily surround ourselves with those who agree with us on opinion-based issues (both in the real world and in on-line interactions), but just because everyone you speak to agrees doesn't mean its necessarily a majority opinion. Or one shared by those who have the authority to make the requisite decisions for change.

There is a website that is pressing for both the Navy and Air Force to be restored the Royal prefix title.  It's here:

http://rcn-rcaf.blogspot.com/

If you read earlier posts on that blog, you'll see other proposals for a Canadian White Ensign.

 

[Michael OLeary]

It does work,

So, why change for the sake of change?

but it doesn't match what the Canadian Navy served under from 1910-1965, especially during the Second World War. 

What about the Canadian Navy of 1965 to 2010? Should not those sailors be proud of their service and the flags they sailed under? How does stripping their heritage to return to something like an earlier era (but not actually returning to that previous example) somehow make things better?

Like the Royal Navy (who fly the Union Jack at the bow of their warships and the White Ensign at the stern), the Royal Australian Navy (who fly the Blue Commonwealth Southern Cross Flag [a.k.a. the National Flag of Australia] at the bow and a WHITE version of that flag at the stern of their warships) and the Royal New Zealand Navy (which does the very same type of thing for their warships as their neighbours across the Tasman Sea),

What's wrong with not being like all of them?

I think we should go back to something similar.

Which brings us back to discussing this as your personal opinion.

Using a national flag as the ensign for a warships and a modified flag as the jack is something the Americans have always done, not us.

Does emphasizing that the US does it make it incorrect or evil in some way?

There is a website that is pressing for both the Navy and Air Force to be restored the Royal prefix title.  It's here:

http://rcn-rcaf.blogspot.com/

If you read earlier posts on that blog, you'll see other proposals for a Canadian White Ensign.

Like I said, it's easy to congregate with like-minded people, that doesn't imply a majority or a solid rational for change.

 

[Edward Campbell]

We have a Navy Jack, which is only flown from the jack staff at anchor, when alongside, etc.  I believe that this proposal is to replace the Canadian Flag as the flag flown when underway, with the Canadian Flag replacing the current Navy Jack.

OK, flip- 'em around: put the nice, existing, approved, Navy white ensign at the back and fly it when underway or engaging the enemy, etc, and put "Pearson's pennant" at the pointy end. Seems easier than trying to paint the Cross of Saint George blue.

 

[The Bread Guy]

There is a website that is pressing for both the Navy and Air Force to be restored the Royal prefix title.  It's here:

http://rcn-rcaf.blogspot.com/

If you read earlier posts on that blog, you'll see other proposals for a Canadian White Ensign.

There's also a fair bit of opinion opposed to the "Bring Back the Royal Designation" idea:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/16520.0.html

Have to agree with MM on this - to me, the bottom line would be this:

It does work ....

If it isn't broken, why fix it?

OK, flip- 'em around: put the nice, existing, approved, Navy white ensign at the back and fly it when underway or engaging the enemy, etc, and put "Pearson's pennant" at the pointy end. Seems easier than trying to paint the Cross of Saint George blue.

For those too young to remember, here's "Pearson's pennant", courtesy of Wikipedia:

 

[Journeyman]

There is a website that is pressing for both the Navy and Air Force to be restored the Royal prefix title.

~yawn~ :deadhorse:

I suspect there's probably a website for platypus porn too; that doesn't make it a good idea.

 

[dapaterson]

~yawn~ :deadhorse:

I suspect there's probably a website for platypus porn too; that doesn't make it a good idea.

...but still a better idea than advocating for labelling our military after an inbred collection of Germans...

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

As  a current serving sailor I am proud to serve under the current naval jack lets think of the present and future generation of sailors for a change.

 

[CountDC]

and as another current serving I will side with Ex-Dragoon. 

 

[Neill McKay]

...but still a better idea than advocating for labelling our military after an inbred collection of Germans...

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[Journeyman]

What's that supposed to mean?

:facepalm:

 

[JSR OP]

...but still a better idea than advocating for labelling our military after an inbred collection of Germans...

Funny....  the Brit Signalers I worked with in Afghanistan thought the same thing....  Not so much the labelling our military part, more along the lines of the inbred collection of Germans part...

 

[Pusser]

I sense there is a little bit of confusion on the use of naval flags.  Although it has been alluded to somewhat above, I will try to clarify things.

Ensigns are flown at the stern of a warship when alongside or at anchor and usually at the masthead when underway.  International maritime law requires ensigns to be used by all ships (warships or otherwise), but merchant ships usually fly them from the stern at all times.

Jacks are pretty much limited to warships and government auxiliaries and are flown from the bow when the ship is at anchor or alongside.  On certain special occasions, they are flown while underway, but this is rare.

There are two traditions with respect to ensigns and jacks:

1)  have a unique ensign and use the national flag a jack; or

2)  have a unique jack and use the national flag as an ensign.

Prior to 1965, Canada followed Tradition #1, with a variation.  We used the White Ensign as an ensign and the Canadian Blue Ensign a jack (since we technically didn't have a national flag).  Australia and New Zealand used the White Ensign as well and their national flags (which were blue ensigns anyway) as jacks.  The Canadian Red Ensign was only used by merchant ships.  In the early 1960s foreign policy in the Commonwealth Realms (i.e. those that have the Queen as Head of State) began to diverge to the point where it became a concern that one Realm would be involved in a conflict that the other Realms were not, yet their warships all wore the same ensign (e.g. Australia was a combattant in Viet Nam, whereas Canada and the UK were not).  This was one of the driving factors in getting a (new) national flag for Canada and new White Ensigns for Australia and New Zealand.  With the introduction of the Maple Leaf flag, canadian warships used the same flag for both the ensign and the jack (complete with jokes that Canadian ships didn't know if they were coming or going ;D).  The Maritime Command Jack was, therefore, introduced in 1973ish.  for whatever reason, we chose to follow Tradition #2 at that point.

Many nations, including Japan and all the other Commonwealth Realms follow Tradition #1, while Ireland, the US, France and the Netherlands follow Tradition #2.  While it seems that most monarchies follow Tradition #1 and republics Tradition #2, there are exceptions.

Some other interesting points:

1)  When the Naval Service Act was passed in 1910, the Governor General, Lord Grey, proposed a Canadian White Ensign that consisted of placing a green maple leaf at the centre of the Cross of St George on the British White Ensign.  The Admiralty refused the recommendation, maintaining that despite being a national navy, the Canadian Naval Service (eventually RCN) was still part of the Imperial Fleet and so should wear the same ensign.

2)  The large cross on the South African White Ensign turned green in 1952, while it was still a Commonwealth Realm.  At that time the South African flag was used in the canton (vice the Union Jack).

Although I am intrigued by this proposal for a new Canadian ensign, I think the best we could ever hope for would be a swapping of the current ensign and jack. 

 

[Pusser]

...but still a better idea than advocating for labelling our military after an inbred collection of Germans...

That's not fair.  You might as well say then that most English people are simply displaced French people, or that only true Canadians are the First Nations...

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I would sooner see new ships be commissioned then worry about what our naval jack is.