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25 pounder vs 105

onecat

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I'm putting this question here as its more of an historical question. How did the 25 pounder do when compared with the US 105.  I know the as Nato standardized, as plan to replace British kit with American... but it the better choice?  Would staying with the 25pounder given Canadian  Artillery units more firepower?
 
Smaller rd (88mm) and less range.

360 traverse (with drop plate)

easier to manhandle (drag ropes included)

both highly accurate and rugged
 
One of the tougher questions faced by the Guns in the 1950's.

The 25 pounder as a "calibre" was born of necessity.   In the 1920's various conferences and boards of experts and ballistics scientists recommended a field gun that had the characteristics of a gun and a howitzer in the 3.5 to 4.5 inch (75 to 100mm) range.   The largest possible reboring/resleeving of the 18 pounders of the time led to the 25 pounder at 88mm.   So a gun gave birth to a gun/howitzer.   Changes in carriage led to the 25 pounder we all know and love... capable of both upper and lower register (high and low angle) and 360 degree traverse.

The 105 is as old a design as the 25 pounder (if not older, the first versions of the 105 had wooden spoked wheels) but was born from a different experience.   The Americans conducted what was called the Westerfeld inquiry after WW I and it determined the future of US artillery to the level of detail that its impact is still felt today, 80 years later.   The US were prepared to be more adventurous than the UK and didn't try to force the new gun/howitzer to conform to the physical restraints of the French 75 which was the US field gun of the time.   They also had experience with the French 105mm howitzer (a Sneider design if I remember correctly) and were much impressed by it ballistics.   So saying, the US gave birth to the 105 in essence by getting a howitzer to do gun things, a howitzer/gun, if you like, and the reverse of the UK route.

Both paths led to the same place... guns, as a divisional close support tool, had to evolve into gun/howitzers.   There was still a place for pure howitzers and guns at higher levels of support and for general support, but close support went the gun/howitzer route.

Now for the choice between the two.   Careful studies of ballistics, time and space considerations, human-machinery interface, ease of maintenance, ammo resupply, etc., showed that the two were pretty closely matched.   The 25 pounder fell down a bit with its separate loading ammo, the 105 took a little longer to get into and out of action (the beloved limber trailer won't enter this as by that time most 25 pounders were towed by the truck directly,so the comparisons for time into and out of action were even).   The 105 was more forgiving of a rough platform, the 25 pounder needed a flat, relatively level platform.   The list of pros and cons for both designs can go on for pages.   The point is they were very closely matched.

When it all boiled down, the 105 (for a penalty in weight of ammo for resupply) won out over the 25 pounder as more weight of shell could be dropped on the target by a battery for a slight penalty in other areas.   The fact that 105 was to be the NATO standard calibre (if not design) and that we could build the guns in Canada, made the decision all the easier.   I wonder how much impact the experiences of the 105mm SP (Priest) regiments in Normandy had on post war deliberations.   Their reports from the field were highly complimentary of the 105 and they weren't thrilled when they were converted back to 25 pounder towed.

Now, in a recent discussion with the world renown WWII Gunner, George Blackburn, ("Guns of Normandy", et al) there was no comparison... the 25 pounder was the best design ever made PERIOD.   As he pointed out... it is still in service in many parts of the world and was recently fired in anger by Kurdish troops in the Iraq war.

I won't argue with George's opinion.   Suffice it to say we are all coloured by our own experiences:   I have served on the 105 C1, C2 and C3; its little Italian brother, the L5; and on several variations of the M109.   I have restored and carried out gun drill on several 25 pounders and frankly, they are all fine tools for chucking the real weapon of the artillery... the projectile.   Personally, I bemoan the loss of the 155 and its earth shaking impact on the bad guys.

Cheers!   Mike
 
All I can add to Horse Gunner's summary was that the 25-pdr had slightly better range at the expense of a much smaller bang at the far end. Both were made in Canada, albeit at different periods, and the 25-pdr on display at the Royal Artillery Museum was built by Sorel Industries.

The human engineering of the 25-pdr sighting system was better in many ways than that of the 105. However, like most bits of British equipment, the gun itself was overly enginered and had a number of quaint features. It was not designed for fire as a howitzer and had to be man-handled into a rather odd posture to fire above 45 degrees elevation.

One should also realize that the British discarded the 25-pdr in favour of the 105 mm calibre, starting with the L5 in the late 1950's-early 1960's in light regiments, and in SP regiments with the Abbott in the mid-sixties. They kept some around at training establishments for use in training FOOs as an expedient to use up the remaining stocks of 25-pdr ammunition for at least a decade after it went out of front line service.

 
You had an opportunity to chat with George Blackburn?  If you meet him again, pass on my thanks for the work he put into writing his books.
 
Horse Gunner, welcome to army.ca.  Our paths have crossed several times over the years and it is good to see that you are doing well.

Regards.
 
Hi Old Sweat and Gunner:

As I get to know the characters on here I'll figure out who is who.   Old Sweat... is you the world famous Master Gunner- Rocky Lunan?

Gunner- please some more hints!   :D

Its interesting to note that the Brits went 105 whole hog... none of that crappy yankee ammo for them... they designed their own which was/is, based on the boasting of friends in the RA, a much better round.   Of course it took the Yanks to reverse engineer the light gun so you don't have to pull a wheel off to rotate the barrel into towing position!   Then again... we bought a French orphan when all our best friends (Yanks, Sxxx-Eaters, Ozzies and Kiwis) are using the light gun.   Duhhh! :blotto:

Just added another gun to my collection.   If someone will explain how to post an image I'll send some.

Cheers!   Mike
 
The 25lb'r had the punch,mobility for a gun crew but what made it obsolete was new armour and the change of doctrine.

The 25 lbr to day with our new ranging kit and ammo may prove to be a effective piece of kit.

We are relying so much on technology to day that we are forgetting the good and effective weapons of the past.

Re Agencour (Sp),What 800 Archers decimated the best France had,the bowmen had a range from 150yds to 200yds max.?

Battle of New Orleans musket's max range was what 100 yds ?

I have offen thought aboiut in WW I we did not try the Long Bow again!?

K.I.S.S.




 
Something I read about Agincourt (or Crecy?) and English longbowmen:  Face a company of them at 200 yards with longbows against a Brit coy from the trenches of 1917, with SMLEs.  Who would win?

Tom
 
TCBF said:
Something I read about Agincourt (or Crecy?) and English longbowmen:   Face a company of them at 200 yards with longbows against a Brit coy from the trenches of 1917, with SMLEs.   Who would win?

Tom
Tom a bit of trivia,in the U.K. we don't give the single finger when swearing right?

We give the old V sign like Winnie did in WW II,were that comes from is when the French caught a English Long Bowman they cut off his fingers so he could no longer draw a bow.

Eventually it  became a taunt when the English met the French all the Bowmen raised there right hand showing there drawing fingers saying "come on Froggy chop them off if you can"

 
Horse Gunner, No, I am not Rocky Lunan. Hint, I helped you bring the 155 mm towed into action last year at the Gunner gathering on the banks of the Rideau.

Frankly, the 25-pdr had reached its growth limit in terms of what its shell could carry and produce at the sharp end. That, if nothing else, essentially doomed it in the post-war planning for war in Europe, although standardization also played a very large part.

We are sixty years from the end of the Second World War, the same time span as between the North West Rebellion and 1939-1945. Would we have ever considered bring back the 9-rounder RML to fight Hitler? While that is a bit of a cheap shot, let's remember the 25-pdr and move on.
 
Uhmmmm, SPR Earl - Me mam told me it was the WELSH longbowmen - who taunted the French (and then turned around to taunt the English too... Or are we history revisionists?

:) ::)
 
Sorry, but according to Snopes, neither version is correct....

http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.htm
 
I remember being told that the 25 pdr traded range for barrel life, giving half the rounds of a 105mm before being shot out.








 
If the 25-pounder traded range for barrel life, somebody struck a lousy deal. The range advantage over the 105 was only about a thousand yards.
 
If I remember, though - it had one of the cooler looking ammo limbers... Wasn't that the attachable one that looked like a rolling post office pidgeon hole set up? A bunch of metal drawers.

You didn't have to back up a deuce with the tailgate down, and slam on the brakes to unload the pallets..

Found a picture: 1/2 way down the page at: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-weapons/allied_ww2-c.htm

 
Hi Pronto:

From bitter experience, let me tell you not to love the limber too much.  They were/are hell to back up! :rage:  To illustrate, take three paper clips and make a chain out of them.  Put 'em on your desk and try to push them around the desk... if you're not swearing to beat the band in three minutes you're a better man than I! ;D

The limbers (properly: Trailer, Artillery, No. 27) were an anachronistic hangover from the horse days. Conceptually, each Troop of four guns had eight field artillery tractors (FATs), four guns and 12 limbers.  In essence each gun had two tractors and three limbers.  This proved impractical and, if I remember correctly, the final outcome was each Troop got one spare tractor which towed two limbers.  This allowed the TSM to rotate loaded limbers with empties which could be replenished in the echelon.

Its interesting to note that every major combattant except the Commonwealth and the Russians had pretty much discarded limbers by 1940.  Stranger yet is that we clung to them only for the field artillery.  Mediums, Ack-Ack and anti-tank gunners all lived limberless with one more exception... the 17 pounder anti-tank gun; they had limbers with modified trays to carry 17 pounder ammo.  Many ATk batteries hooked the guns directly to the tractors and discarded the trailers.  One problem with direct hookup was the British design of lunettes on very short tongues... left no room for sharp turns when hooked up to vehs with deep set pintle hooks.

This summer I plan to drive myself up the wall by trying out our 17 pounder (www.calnan.com/swords) with a limber to see if its any harder to back up than a 25 pounder and rig.  I've become proficient at pushing the 40mm Bofors (which has a four wheeled carriage) but only when we use the front pintle hook on the gun tractor. ;)

The heavy guns were limbered in the sense that many models used an axle to support the weight of the trails, which is the real definition of a limber.  But then Heavy Gunners were as proficient with winches as they were with gun drill! :)

Experiments towards the end of WWII saw the artillery moving away from the trailer and hooking the 25 pounder directly to four and six wheel drive gun tractors.  I have some photos of a battery in action in the 1950's with some guns towed by 6X6 M135 deuce and a halfs and some towed by 4X4 60 hundredweight (3 ton) WWII vets... not a FAT in sight!

Cheers!  Mike
 
OK, horse gunner, you win... It took me until today to "park" my little three paperclip train.... What a hassle - I think I will concede they are NOT cool, and would be a massive pain in the posterior.

:salute:

 
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