The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[KevinB]

Of course there are always updates and such.
To say an aircraft can do this and it cant, then add a few billion there and few billion there to make it work is simply smart business on part of the manufacturing group, not desirable to the purchaser.
The aircraft was suppose to be built to XYZ standard, it has hit ABC and D. But needs everything else in between. Most Buyers knew some of this initially, but were promised things would come along. Afterall it was a new platform with tons of capability packed into one platform. What I don't think they were prepared for was the actual time frame for such things to be upgraded and working along with the cost of the upgrades. Open sources state these are very alarmingly expensive and delayed.

The F16 is still getting updates and upgrades. Surpassed it's original design spec. I cant imagine in 47ish years the F35 still getting its initial promised tech. Let alone installing conformal fuel tanks, updating its systems to accept different ordinances.
Time will tell, if I am around in 47 years to see the F35 flying into the next 20 years (outside of Canada's fleet) I would be surprised.

Honestly sometimes you are such a massive clown it is just impossible not to call you out.

The Upgrade blocks are not underdelivered technology - they are exactly what they say --> upgrade blocks - things like upgraded sensors, engines etc.
The F-22 just had a new block done, your damn right the USAF paid LockMart for it, because it was NOT part of the original design parameters.

 

[childs56]

Honestly sometimes you are such a massive clown it is just impossible not to call you out.

LOL I expect you to name call it seems to be a regular content yourself and supporters. I will prepare myself for the onslaught of negative comments coming form others. I will shed a tear that you had enough thought to do so.

The Upgrade blocks are not underdelivered technology - they are exactly what they say --> upgrade blocks - things like upgraded sensors, engines etc.

Yes, the F35 was promised to be able to perform better then it did. But it was lack luster initially as stated by countries who took delivery of the plane. It had not performed as promised. They were promised the capability would improve at no cost. But the cost was was substantial so they had to pay more money for capability they already thought they paid for.
That was discussed in very brief detail in open sources, and more depth in closed platforms.
To the point that they stoped delivery of the aircraft. Go figure the platform does not perform as well as promised even at its initial delivery of the lower tiered blocks.
Well sorry your radar does not work as well as promised but we will fix it. OH wait we have this upgrade you can purchase... lol
Yes there are always issues and concerns, along with upgrades. The aircraft as promised and sold was no where what was thought to of been delivered.

The F-22 just had a new block done, your damn right the USAF paid LockMart for it, because it was NOT part of the original design parameters.

Upgrades are expected, modifications are expected. But the Platform should actually work as promised before delivery.

 

[KevinB]

LOL I expect you to name call it seems to be a regular content yourself and supporters. I will prepare myself for the onslaught of negative comments coming form others. I will shed a tear that you had enough thought to do so.

Yes, the F35 was promised to be able to perform better then it did. But it was lack luster initially as stated by countries who took delivery of the plane. It had not performed as promised. They were promised the capability would improve at no cost. But the cost was was substantial so they had to pay more money for capability they already thought they paid for.
That was discussed in very brief detail in open sources, and more depth in closed platforms.
To the point that they stoped delivery of the aircraft. Go figure the platform does not perform as well as promised even at its initial delivery of the lower tiered blocks.
Well sorry your radar does not work as well as promised but we will fix it. OH wait we have this upgrade you can purchase... lol
Yes there are always issues and concerns, along with upgrades. The aircraft as promised and sold was no where what was thought to of been delivered.

Upgrades are expected, modifications are expected. But the Platform should actually work as promised before delivery.

I think you need to find better news sources.

While certain Upgrade Blocks of the F-35 have had delays, and there have been snags with other aspects - the Upgrade Blocks are separate from some of the material deficiencies that occurred in earlier F-35's.

Keep in mind the F-35 had to be 3 very different types of aircraft, the V/STOL B version caused a lot of compromises.

But the current operating costs of the F-35 are less than the F-15 are - for a much more capable system (albeit less ordnance)

 

[childs56]

I think you need to find better news sources.

lol, open source is pretty telling themselves. Closed source actually details with great accuracy of the problems. Some may never be fixed.

While certain Upgrade Blocks of the F-35 have had delays, and there have been snags with other aspects - the Upgrade Blocks are separate from some of the material deficiencies that occurred in earlier F-35's.

engine issues are not block problems.
speed restrictions are not block problems.
sensors fusion are not block problems.
operating systems are not block problems,

Keep in mind the F-35 had to be 3 very different types of aircraft, the V/STOL B version caused a lot of compromises.

sure, but they all have similar issues and concerns. Each model has specific problems to their individual design requirements.

But the current operating costs of the F-35 are less than the F-15 are - for a much more capable system (albeit less ordnance)

depends on what you consider more capable system.
One would have to define the parameters. Both Platforms have their plus and minuses depending on mission role and requirements.
A race car and truck (F15) is good for some things and a Audi Q3 (F35) is good for other things.
They both have things in common but both built for different roles.

 

[PrairieFella]

All I know is idk if we should even trust F35 anymore. There is reporting that the HIMARS have essentially been quasi-bricked in Ukraine, unless I'm misinterpreting the reporting, any American high tech kit is an insane liability. Hell, Navarro continued his Anschluss narrative with vigour tonight. F35 might just be too risky.

 

[KevinB]

lol, open source is pretty telling themselves. Closed source actually details with great accuracy of the problems. Some may never be fixed.

Well since you have zero access to closed source stuff (and if you did posting here about it would be incredibly dumb). I’d suggest you not outright slander the product.

engine issues are not block problems.
speed restrictions are not block problems.
sensors fusion are not block problems.
operating systems are not block problems,

Speed restrictions were implemented due to early issue with the coatings that assisted in its stealth. As well as certain operating limits for weather. All those where designed to do was save wear and tear on the AC until fixes could be implemented.

I think you missed the mark on some of the other comments. It isn’t an OS or Sensor issue if all of a sudden you try to push significantly more data to the aircraft than was planned. Nor is it a fault if another company comes up with a new sensor and it doesn’t integrate correctly. Those issues are what Block Upgrade’s are for.

Engine delays caused due to a subcontractor using improperly sources foreign material, aren’t a performance issue - it’s a compliance issue.

sure, but they all have similar issues and concerns. Each model has specific problems to their individual design requirements.

The requirement for the B design variant made it so the A and C simply can’t do something’s that would be nice to have had.

depends on what you consider more capable system.
One would have to define the parameters. Both Platforms have their plus and minuses depending on mission role and requirements.
A race car and truck (F15) is good for some things and a Audi Q3 (F35) is good for other things.
They both have things in common but both built for different roles.

Agreed. But the point is the F-35 price and operating costs have come down drastically since the start. It’s a very versatile combat aircraft - dramatically better air to air abilities than anything but the F-22. Unless you listen to Elon Musk who is just interested in fleecing the USG out of more billions.

Considering the RCAF F-35 will be doing NORAD missions and Trump will likely be a lame duck inside 22 months, I wouldn’t be overly concerned.

 

[childs56]

Well since you have zero access to closed source stuff (and if you did posting here about it would be incredibly dumb). I’d suggest you not outright slander the product.

Anything I ever post is open source information.
More people then you know or think have access to close source things. Not every close source is Top Secret. Work groups tend to do those things. As does industry who are involved in over all processes.

A simple example is a materials company. Who is given a contract to provide a high stress, extreme heat/ pressure tolerance crack free flexible (relative to the material) high wearing, resistive to abrasion coating. That company is working on a industrial based coating for their heavy industrial client. Then received a contract for cylindrical barrel coating system for a foreign buyer. Open source information.
The initial coating they made was to protect pipelines and oilfield well head/ frac head systems from abrasion. Now they provide the service to a defense company. The exact process, specs and composition is a proprietary process. (Government closed source information)
That process is now used throughout military parts manufacturing around the world. The exact process they use for different parts and treatments is closed source information. The process itself is open information.

This is similar to the system integration of the F35 systems. The exact make up of the systems and capability is closed source, but the process is used elsewhere for operations of systems around the world.

Speed restrictions were implemented due to early issue with the coatings that assisted in its stealth. As well as certain operating limits for weather. All those where designed to do was save wear and tear on the AC until fixes could be implemented.

Have they made the fix yet? It was more then just the coating.

I think you missed the mark on some of the other comments. It isn’t an OS or Sensor issue if all of a sudden you try to push significantly more data to the aircraft than was planned.

The platform was suppose to be able to send, receive and process more data then it actually can upon initial delivery in the current and past models. They have issues with integrating the current systems let alone anything new. The delivery platforms do not do what they are suppose to do.
That does not make it useless platform. It still has some amazing capabilities, it does not make it as lethal of a platform as was initially billed to the customers.
For militaries who were and are replacing their entire fleet with the F35 for its current promised abilities. A few of those countries have delayed the retirement and or replacement of their entire fleets.

Nor is it a fault if another company comes up with a new sensor and it doesn’t integrate correctly. Those issues are what Block Upgrade’s are for.

Sort of, when the current sensor does not work to its full potential due to other issues it should make one wonder if it was correct implantation from the start.

Engine delays caused due to a subcontractor using improperly sources foreign material, aren’t a performance issue - it’s a compliance issue.

It was deeper then that, but that was the simpler reason.

The requirement for the B design variant made it so the A and C simply can’t do something’s that would be nice to have had.

Agreed. But the point is the F-35 price and operating costs have come down drastically since the start.

Fair

It’s a very versatile combat aircraft - dramatically better air to air abilities than anything but the F-22.

Yes and no, they systems integration is more capable then gen 4 an 4.5 platforms. But they have and currently implementing testing of those gen 5 and 5+ systems into legacy platforms with some great success. Our foreign partners are really pushing the boundaries with system fusion. SABB is is one of the leading groups.

Unless you listen to Elon Musk who is just interested in fleecing the USG out of more billions.

LOL, he is trying to create efficiencies for all.

Considering the RCAF F-35 will be doing NORAD missions and Trump will likely be a lame duck inside 22 months, I wouldn’t be overly concerned.

Thats is true.

 

[calculus]

All I know is idk if we should even trust F35 anymore. There is reporting that the HIMARS have essentially been quasi-bricked in Ukraine, unless I'm misinterpreting the reporting, any American high tech kit is an insane liability. Hell, Navarro continued his Anschluss narrative with vigour tonight. F35 might just be too risky.

You're not the only one with second thoughts. This in the Globe today (a similar article by he-who-shall-not-be named appeared today as well in another paper): Opinion: It may provoke Trump, but Canada should cancel the purchase of F-35 fighter jets from the U.S.

I wouldn't want to restart that process again, personally, but some good points are made.

 

[Quirky]

You're not the only one with second thoughts. This in the Globe today (a similar article by he-who-shall-not-be named appeared today as well in another paper): Opinion: It may provoke Trump, but Canada should cancel the purchase of F-35 fighter jets from the U.S.

I'm glad these idiots are not in charge of policy.

 

[Rainbow1910]

The only reason I'd go with the Gripen as a 2nd fighter would be to partner with Saab on their Next Generation fighter (building an initial batch of Gripen's here would get our workforce trained for the new fighters). There is an expectation that their Gripen replacement will be larger and have longer range due to the fact that since joining NATO their front line is much further away.

Sweden will however need partners to get their program off the ground due to the cost of such a program and they are the only realistic partner for Canada that would give us the option of domestic production and integration of Pratt & Whitney engines in the design. You're not going to get that from Dassault, GCAP, FCAS or NGAD. If domestic production is a key objective then partnering with Sweden is likely our best option.

If we forget about the idea of domestic production or integration of Canadian engines then the program I'd pick to join is GCAS. The design is further along than the others, the UK is most likely of all nations to remain a firm ally of Canada (and Italy and Japan less likely than France or Germany to have any significant political differences with us) so probably the more stable alliance. Also, the design is focusing on extended range as both the UK and Japan have very large airspaces to patrol which would be a major requirement for Canada as well obviously. The problem though with the program is that as advanced as it is there is likely limited opportunity for Canadian industrial participation in the program.

Partnering with Saab in order to get aboard their Next Generation Fighter platform is picking one of the worst horses in Europe to bet on and attaching yourselves at the hip. Saab has zero experience building advanced next generation aircraft, let alone 6th generation stealth aircraft. They don't have the resources or expertise to likely even build an especially competitive 5th generation platform, hence them continuing to warm over the Gripen and desperately continue to flog it abroad. There is a reason Sweden was looking to get onboard with the GCAP program, although they've seemingly pulled back from this.

Domestic production in Canada is largely a red herring as the costs, timescale and effort required to put together an adequate military aerospace industry would be astronomical. All of this spent on what will likely amount to another Gripen situation, poor international export prospects, low rate of production, issues with ITAR and high cost to capability ratio. Whatever order we make and the export potential will likely never cover the exorbitant costs in the first place. Domestic offsets and production was something considered with the CF-18 replacement, and the Gripen lost to the F-35 with its frankly ridiculous attempts at opening a Canadian production line.

GCAP is very unlikely to allow Canada a seat at the table as a partner with realistic workshare, as nations like Japan are already becoming weary of their own workshare being eaten into by the ever growing amount of partners being put forward. There is no way we would be permitted or capable of production of engines for a 6th gen fighter, let alone a 5th or even 4th generation fighter. Modern military jet engines are incredibly complex and have insane design/production tolerances. When you have nations with more advanced aerospace industries like Russia and China struggling with some of these engine types, Canada doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell.

Well, there’s always jumping in with the ROK on the Boromae program. I mean, it’s getting to the point that I’d like to just show up in Seoul with a shopping list for the Army, Navy and Air Force.

Realistic or not for the fighter, I think the South Koreans would be willing partners across the board for joint development and construction on any number of other projects. If we make good with them on the sub but, there’s no telling what else we could partner up to do.

KF-21 is many, many years away from being even a baseline capable 5th generation platform to approach something like the F-35. KF-21 is still also subject to ITAR and has F414 engines, so there is still a connection to the US where they could flex their muscles over us if they wanted to.

All I know is idk if we should even trust F35 anymore. There is reporting that the HIMARS have essentially been quasi-bricked in Ukraine, unless I'm misinterpreting the reporting, any American high tech kit is an insane liability. Hell, Navarro continued his Anschluss narrative with vigour tonight. F35 might just be too risky.

If we aren't going to trust the F-35 anymore and want a pull out of US equipment, most of our upcoming vital procurements are also at risk and the upkeep/development of many current systems are similarly there. People really do not know how deep we are in the US ecosystem, and we likely aren't getting out without being severely mauled if so.

 

[KevinB]

@Rainbow1910 99% agreed. However a correction I’d like to add, was Ukraine was the USSR’s aerospace leader, and Russia hasn’t made deep strides in engines or designs since the breakup.

 

[AvroArrow92]

If we aren't going to trust the F-35 anymore and want a pull out of US equipment, most of our upcoming vital procurements are also at risk and the upkeep/development of many current systems are similarly there. People really do not know how deep we are in the US ecosystem, and we likely aren't getting out without being severely mauled if so.

Honestly so be it. At this point I do not believe there is any sort of credible assurance from the USA that our dependence on using their military equipment will not be used against us. Will never be able to fully stop a conventional threat from the Americans, however I see no reason to make it easy for them either.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It's to late for the SPY-7 and the F35 to change tack, but it is a good time to spend the rest of our defense dollars in Europe and Korea.

 

[GR66]

Honestly so be it. At this point I do not believe there is any sort of credible assurance from the USA that our dependence on using their military equipment will not be used against us. Will never be able to fully stop a conventional threat from the Americans, however I see no reason to make it easy for them either.

I think there are certain areas where it may be next to impossible to escape the US military equipment "ecosystem". There are also some areas where it doesn't make much sense to try and escape it.

Short of an actual (but highly unlikely) US invasion of Canada - which good luck preventing in a conventional military sense regardless of what kit we purchase - we're still going to be neighbours on a shared continent and it will be in the interest of both Canada and the US to ensure that the continent remains safe from attack from outside. Trump won't be here forever and while MAGA might remain I doubt that Vance or any other successor will have the same passionate following to push through extreme policies targeting Canada.

In that case I think it makes sense to continue to share the cost of the NORAD warning system. Our fighters should remain interoperable with the US (my main concerns with the F-35 are it's serviceability, availability of spare parts and its long-term future in light of the growth of uncrewed systems - not with the potential of the US disabling them). Similarly it's probably too late to do anything about the SPY-7 radars and AEGIS systems for the River-class, but at least we have the capability of joint BMD defence with that system which the US will view as us being a benefit to them.

However there are many other areas where close integration with the US for continental defence is NOT a requirement. Tanks, IFVs, Artillery (tube and rocket), AD, munitions (missiles, torpedoes, countermeasures, etc.), subs, corvettes, UAVs/USVs/UUVs, sensors, helicopters, etc., etc., etc. For all of these things I think we should definitely look at domestic production where possible or non-US sourced (Europe, South Korea, Japan, etc.).

 

[KevinB]

Honestly so be it. At this point I do not believe there is any sort of credible assurance from the USA that our dependence on using their military equipment will not be used against us. Will never be able to fully stop a conventional threat from the Americans, however I see no reason to make it easy for them either.

Ft Drum NY has more equipment and soldiers than than the CA does.

The USAF’s F-22 Raptors mean that it doesn’t matter what the RCAF flies, if the USAF doesn’t want to let the RCAF fly they can’t.

But we aren’t invading you, as it’s a pointless endeavor, the amount of troops and equipment to try something so stupid is something we can’t muster. All it would do is start the second American Civil War.



Pick the best equipment for the Canadian requirement, and buy enough of it to have operational replacements and spares for years.

Diversify where possible and try to get as much domestic content as possible — but don’t make rash decisions on what to buy or not buy due to 47’s insanity.

 

[JLB50]

Ft Drum NY has more equipment and soldiers than than the CA does.

The USAF’s F-22 Raptors mean that it doesn’t matter what the RCAF flies, if the USAF doesn’t want to let the RCAF fly they can’t.

But we aren’t invading you, as it’s a pointless endeavor, the amount of troops and equipment to try something so stupid is something we can’t muster. All it would do is start the second American Civil War.



Pick the best equipment for the Canadian requirement, and buy enough of it to have operational replacements and spares for years.

Diversify where possible and try to get as much domestic content as possible — but don’t make rash decisions on what to buy or not buy due to 47’s insanity.

The problem isn’t so much 47’s insanity, Kevin. It’s the insanity of his most fanatical voters and all those politicians like MJT, Vance, Boebert, Gates, Graham, etc. who have gladly enabled him. Even after Trump leaves office his stench will remain for years and possibly decades to come. In the minds of probably tens of millions of Americans, Canada is now being seen as little better than a backwater country of little relevance except for it being filled with pro-communist sympathizers. Even my distant relatives in the U.S. think that Canada is basically communist, not recognizing that we have had conservative governments off and on nationally and provincially since Confederation.

I do agree, however, not to make decisions rashly but think that we need to dis-entangle ourselves from U.S. control as much as possible.

 

[OldSolduer]

Pick the best equipment for the Canadian requirement, and buy enough of it to have operational replacements and spares for years.

Diversify where possible and try to get as much domestic content as possible — but don’t make rash decisions on what to buy or not buy due to 47’s insanity.

This makes sense. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I am sure there are saner people in industry that are chatting back and forth.

 

[Quirky]

Even my distant relatives in the U.S. think that Canada is basically communist

With the LPC/NDP being in power the last 10 years, I can see how they would make that assumption.

 

[JLB50]

Leftish, yes. Communist, not even close. Similarly, Harper’s government was not fascist.

 

[OldSolduer]

Leftish, yes. Communist, not even close. Similarly, Harper’s government was not fascist.

Agreed. There were never any gulags built and there is a democratic process in place.