The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[dapaterson]

This is just not true. They can mess with parts. They can make it very hard to support and modify the aircraft. But the much rumoured "kill switch" is a myth.

JSF is not a meeting of equals.

 

[Quirky]

Cancel the F35 purchase in protest. That will sure show them!

 

[Czech_pivo]

Given timelines involved, if there's any reduction in order, there's just no point ordering anything else. Just join FCAS or GCAP. We're talking about finishing deliveries for the current F-35 buy in 2032. That's not FOC. Or looking at order cancellation and getting something else. Meanwhile, GCAP targeting EIS in 2035. FCAS targeting EIS in 2040.

So if we're buying a reduce order of Rafales or Typhoons, there's no point of a second fleet. Just start the transition to Euro sixth Gen right away.

People should realise that statistically these 4 yrs are more than likely an anomaly in US-CDN relations. Yes it sucks right now but the trend line is not moving in the direction of a split, if ANYTHING, if one was to talk about a 'split', its coming MORE from Canada over the last 15yrs thanks to a historical trend in our immigration policy where 8 of the top 10 ten countries where are immigrants are coming from are from 'adversaries' to NOT ONLY the US but to the entire Western world and that INCLUDES us.

 

[Good2Golf]

Cancel the F35 purchase in protest. That will sure show them!

It’s not about “show them” but a valid question as to can you trust the system/people/society behind it now?

 

[YZT580]

People should realise that statistically these 4 yrs are more than likely an anomaly in US-CDN relations. Yes it sucks right now but the trend line is not moving in the direction of a split, if ANYTHING, if one was to talk about a 'split', its coming MORE from Canada over the last 15yrs thanks to a historical trend in our immigration policy where 8 of the top 10 ten countries where are immigrants are coming from are from 'adversaries' to NOT ONLY the US but to the entire Western world and that INCLUDES us.

an anomaly maybe, but when your spouse catches you out, even if you eventually pave things over lack of trust still remains. "I wonder" still hangs over the front door when they are working late or out with the boys/girls. Trump has effectively forced us into looking elsewhere for our partners, which is not a bad thing but there will never be the same level of interaction.

 

[Quirky]

It’s not about “show them” but a valid question as to can you trust the system/people/society behind it now?

The F35 will be operational with us for decades. Presidents and Policies change every half a decade.

If the F35 is cancelled for whatever political reasons, then Canada should just go full Switzerland and claim neutrality. Buy 100+ Eurofighters or Rafales and focus on homeland defense. Stop sticking our nose where it doesn't belong.

 

[Good2Golf]

The F35 will be operational with us for decades. Presidents and Policies change every half a decade.

Up until now perhaps, but things have changed substantially in the transition from 45 to 47, and it would be incredibly naive to believe/hope that things will settle down in the future, that all will *be good and let bygones be bygones and that there will never be any threats to economically destroy a *country and subsume it into another nation.

If the F35 is cancelled for whatever political reasons, then Canada should just go full Switzerland and claim neutrality. Buy 100+ Eurofighters or Rafales and focus on homeland defense. Stop sticking our nose where it doesn't belong.

Why? If Canada believes that a collective of many democratically-elected societies and nations will be more respective of it, nothing wrong with agreeing to participate in such a construct. Sweden is a better indicator of assessments of neutrality vs collaboration.

 

[QV]

It’s not about “show them” but a valid question as to can you trust the system/people/society behind it now?

I wouldn't want a kill switch on anything of ours no matter who has the button.

 

[ytz]

People should realise that statistically these 4 yrs are more than likely an anomaly in US-CDN relations.

I don't think that can be said with any certainty. Fool me once.....

Best case scenario here is that the US treats Canada with more benign neglect.

Worst case scenario? Trump or some future version of him giving us a Sophie's choice of choosing between being American's Belarus or America's Ukraine.

For now, we can hope that it's mostly aggressive trade rhetoric. In that sense, there's no good reason to cancel the F-35. But we'll have to be much more careful with supporting our own industrial base. Unlike the historical whining about Bombardier (or really any large industrial champion here) that we always see in this country. See the recent whining about the government funding Telesat and MDA to deliver a competitive constellation (strongly supported by CAF Space btw). With that in mind, as we go forward, we'll have to really consider where American contractors fit and where we can embed our defence industrial base more. I don't think it's a certainty that the US will be as generous with workshare going forward either.

 

[Good2Golf]

I wouldn't want a kill switch on anything of ours no matter who has the button.

I know there are some who dismiss ‘God code’ on platforms, but I’m confident enough with anecdotal evidence, and in one case I actually was part of a programming team on our CF-18 team inputting FORTRAN code into the 87X native main load, that various forms of God-code exist, and not just Us platforms. The code can limit functionality, and technically there’s nothing keeping the code from imposing other more significant limits on a platform.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I find it interesting that the consensus here seems to be that if the F35 ever became “no go” for Canada, that Rafale is the next best choice.

I would have thought Eurofighter, just on user base alone.

I continue to learn.

 

[dapaterson]

I find it interesting that the consensus here seems to be that if the F35 ever became “no go” for Canada, that Rafale is the next best choice.

I would have thought Eurofighter, just on user base alone.

I continue to learn.

No, no, the consensus is that we'll bring back the Avro Arrow.

 

[Good2Golf]

I find it interesting that the consensus here seems to be that if the F35 ever became “no go” for Canada, that Rafale is the next best choice.

I would have thought Eurofighter, just on user base alone.

I continue to learn.

Not fast air from the cockpit point of view (perhaps @SupersonicMax can provide insight?), but the Rafale is a very nice platform and there is more potential upside with a CAN-FRA collab with Dassault in Canada. I believe France would be easier to work something out with bilaterally, than the Eurofighter consortium.

 

[QV]

I don't think that can be said with any certainty. Fool me once.....

Best case scenario here is that the US treats Canada with more benign neglect.

Canada will have to up it's game if it wants to be treated better. Freeloading is not going to be tolerated anymore in the world of transactional relationships.

Having a serious next gen fighter in the right numbers would be a valuable tool to demonstrate we are serious.

 

[ytz]

Up until now perhaps, but things have changed substantially in the transition from 45 to 47, and it would be incredibly naive to believe/hope that things will settle down in the future, that all will gig and let bygones be bygones and that there will never be any threats to economically destroy a curry and subsume it into another nation.

Exactly. For better or worse, Americans chose Trump 47 knowing the implication full well. This administration is attempting to actively realign foreign policy wholesale with Russia. The American voter is finnicky and we really have no idea where all this is going to go. Even if Trump and co are out next term, doing this every 4 years, is not a way for us to build consistent policy.

Why? If Canada believes that a collective of many democratically-elected societies and nations will be more respective of it, nothing wrong with agreeing to participate in such a construct. Sweden is a better indicator of assessments of neutrality vs collaboration.

Exactly. There's nothing that says we need to be neutral. Indeed, we're still better of being part of a collective.

 

[ytz]

I find it interesting that the consensus here seems to be that if the F35 ever became “no go” for Canada, that Rafale is the next best choice.

I would have thought Eurofighter, just on user base alone.

I continue to learn.

Not a capability thing per se. But a question of independence from the US. France strives for it across the board. I am not as sure about the UK and Germany. On capability, I think the Typhoon and Rafale are in the same class and have their own strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Halifax Tar]

People should realise that statistically these 4 yrs are more than likely an anomaly in US-CDN relations. Yes it sucks right now but the trend line is not moving in the direction of a split, if ANYTHING, if one was to talk about a 'split', its coming MORE from Canada over the last 15yrs thanks to a historical trend in our immigration policy where 8 of the top 10 ten countries where are immigrants are coming from are from 'adversaries' to NOT ONLY the US but to the entire Western world and that INCLUDES us.

My gut tells me your right this is an anomaly.

But I also think this should be a wake up call for Canada. That no one has our best interests at heart except us.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It will be amusing if Lockheed has to pay a 25% tariff on parts being built in Canada for all the F35's