Replacing the Subs

[Cloud Cover]

Just my cheap opinion, but it would be an interesting capability to have a submarine that could deploy, install, activate “smart” command activated ASW sea mines and sensors on patrol and then robotically recover them later through an airlock system or even undersea drones that perform that function for a “mother sub”.

 

[NavyShooter]

Well it still needs to be cleaned up. May as well get it done!!

The facility has been historically used as a 'gun park' and a gun maintenance facility for the Navy. The amount of oil spilled in that ground was HUGE. The reason they finally paved the parking lot in the upper base area was to reduce the leaching of that oil into the harbour.

 

[Underway]

Undisclosed speed figures make any range boast immediately suspect, Saab especially is known for "creative accounting" with their marketing of items like the Gripen E. Saab has had numerous challenges with properly maturing and putting a far smaller design into production with their baseline A26 for the Swedish Navy, they are easily one of the more risky partners on offer. They also managed to lose out on the Dutch submarine program to the French when it was thought they had a clinch on that bid of theirs with the same design they are pushing for the RCN.

I remain fairly skeptical of Saab, I personally rate them down at the bottom of the barrel currently alongside Navantia.

This is why the range includes a speed figure in the RFI. 7000nm at 8 knots. I was reading up on the other submarines as well, what I'm realizing is that 13000nm isn't even the best range figure available. Also the more I read the more the Orka class keeps going up the list (despite having to work with France) and the 212CD goes further down the list.

 

[Rainbow1910]

This is why the range includes a speed figure in the RFI. 7000nm at 8 knots. I was reading up on the other submarines as well, what I'm realizing is that 13000nm isn't even the best range figure available. Also the more I read the more the Orka class keeps going up the list (despite having to work with France) and the 212CD goes further down the list.

It is a big help that the French are likely to offer Orka which is tied with KSS-III as basically one of the largest conventional submarine designs on the planet currently. On the other hand, the agreements made for work with domestic Canadian industry to help develop the capability to maintain/refit the submarines alongside any work sharing that may happen is just as important as the procurement of the boats as well. France has a less than spotless record regarding this sort of thing, so that alone does give me pause to consider working with them.

It is important to realize as well that Germany would likely be pitching Canada the Type 212CDE, which is the same variant that was pitched to the Dutch. The CDE shares the shares the same design, hull diameter and system components as the German/Norwegian CD however, it has additional sections placed in the hull which increase its weight by 500t, brings the length to over 80m and provides additional accommodation/fuel/stores loads for longer deployments. This helps level the playing field versus the larger competitors but there is a bit more risk to doing this obviously.

Orka is a good design it would seem but as with Spain, I have serious questions about the viability of France as a good faith partner in a program that is really going to require extensive cooperation.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Orka is a good design it would seem but as with Spain, I have serious questions about the viability of France as a good faith partner in a program that is really going to require extensive cooperation.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It is a big help that the French are likely to offer Orka which is tied with KSS-III as basically one of the largest conventional submarine designs on the planet currently. On the other hand, the agreements made for work with domestic Canadian industry to help develop the capability to maintain/refit the submarines alongside any work sharing that may happen is just as important as the procurement of the boats as well. France has a less than spotless record regarding this sort of thing, so that alone does give me pause to consider working with them.

It is important to realize as well that Germany would likely be pitching Canada the Type 212CDE, which is the same variant that was pitched to the Dutch. The CDE shares the shares the same design, hull diameter and system components as the German/Norwegian CD however, it has additional sections placed in the hull which increase its weight by 500t, brings the length to over 80m and provides additional accommodation/fuel/stores loads for longer deployments. This helps level the playing field versus the larger competitors but there is a bit more risk to doing this obviously.

Orka is a good design it would seem but as with Spain, I have serious questions about the viability of France as a good faith partner in a program that is really going to require extensive cooperation.

Not to mention the KS-III will have decade in service by the time the Orka is launched. I think it is good to have a tender that is open so the SK work hard for the contract. But I think we would be looking at KS-III Batch 3 by the time we want our in the water.

 

[Underway]

It is a big help that the French are likely to offer Orka which is tied with KSS-III as basically one of the largest conventional submarine designs on the planet currently. On the other hand, the agreements made for work with domestic Canadian industry to help develop the capability to maintain/refit the submarines alongside any work sharing that may happen is just as important as the procurement of the boats as well. France has a less than spotless record regarding this sort of thing, so that alone does give me pause to consider working with them.

It is important to realize as well that Germany would likely be pitching Canada the Type 212CDE, which is the same variant that was pitched to the Dutch. The CDE shares the shares the same design, hull diameter and system components as the German/Norwegian CD however, it has additional sections placed in the hull which increase its weight by 500t, brings the length to over 80m and provides additional accommodation/fuel/stores loads for longer deployments. This helps level the playing field versus the larger competitors but there is a bit more risk to doing this obviously.

Orka is a good design it would seem but as with Spain, I have serious questions about the viability of France as a good faith partner in a program that is really going to require extensive cooperation.

I have little to quibble on this. I agree whole heartedly with the French concerns, as some of that is what sunk (pun intended) the Barracuda for Australia.

I do understand the Germans would be pitching a E version of their submarine, but given it did not fare well vs the Barracuda (Orka) in the last competition that means that something caused the Dutch (notoriously quite logical and fair minded when it comes to government contracting) to pick something else.

All things being equal right now with my current information KSS III is probably the front runner. Korea will bend over backwards to make a contract work given how they are trying to sell with Poland and how they approach their other foreign military sales. And their submarine is quite good, easily meets the RFI requirements and they have spare capacity (and likely be able to get us submarines sooner than later).

 

[Czech_pivo]

Not to mention the KS-III will have decade in service by the time the Orka is launched. I think it is good to have a tender that is open so the SK work hard for the contract. But I think we would be looking at KS-III Batch 3 by the time we want our in the water.

I'm looking at the SK sub from the perspective of Canada's current 'pivot' to sending more RCN assets to the WC theatre of operations (as well as available manufacturing space).

1) If Poland choses the KS-III sub, in addition to us, that provides us (and the Poles) with both Halifax and Gdynia as possible dockyards where both sets of subs can be serviced in the Atlantic/Baltic area.
2) On the WC, that would allow us to have both Vancouver and Jinhae Naval Base in South Korea as possible dockyards where our subs can be be serviced.

Choosing the German Type 212CD or the French Orka would provide us with a dockyard in Europe for servicing as well but nothing on the WC/Pacific theatre. I like the redundancy of having 4 possible dockyards for servicing our subs in 4 unique locations vs having only 3.

 

[Stoker]

What's up with the AOPS jetty? I trialed that jetty while on VDQ and aside from the internet not being connected properly everything was better then pretty much anything else in Dockyard at the time.

From what I could find out there is a weight restriction for very large vehicles, although I saw a mobile crane down there the other day.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Canada going for the most bad ass SSK fleet in NATO is not something I would have anticipated a year ago. It’s almost … well … unbelievable….

 

[daftandbarmy]

Canada going for the most bad ass SSK fleet in NATO is not something I would have anticipated a year ago. It’s almost … well … unbelievable….

Canada be like...

 

[Navy_Pete]

Canada going for the most bad ass SSK fleet in NATO is not something I would have anticipated a year ago. It’s almost … well … unbelievable….

Fever dreams usually are, but if it comes through, and if we somehow increase our number of submariners, uh, eightfold, quadruple the size of the FMF, MEPM and ISSC support arm, and come up with significant and effective berthing arrangements I'll stand corrected.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Fever dreams usually are, but if it comes through, and if we somehow increase our number of submariners, uh, eightfold, quadruple the size of the FMF, MEPM and ISSC support arm, and come up with significant and effective berthing arrangements I'll stand corrected.

Exactly. It’s all an Op…

 

[suffolkowner]

Not to mention the KS-III will have decade in service by the time the Orka is launched. I think it is good to have a tender that is open so the SK work hard for the contract. But I think we would be looking at KS-III Batch 3 by the time we want our in the water.

begs the question, would we be getting a KS-III or KS-IV?