Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[OldSolduer]

True but the 30mm is the only one with a viable round. Missiles are quite expensive against some targets…

I agree - why waste a missile when a .50 HMG can take care of it? or a 30 mm

 

[KevinB]

I agree - why waste a missile when a .50 HMG can take care of it? or a 30 mm

Watching an Avenger go at a target made me give up on .50 for that role.

It would be ideal if there was a 20 or 25mm round that was ideal for AD and C-UAS, but alas they don’t have the payload/diameter for current technology.

 

[Kirkhill]

True but the 30mm is the only one with a viable round. Missiles are quite expensive against some targets…

But...

I am going to guess that operating an RWS is an art-form on its own regardless of the weapons fit. Learning how to operate one in an environment that only requires the EO suite but is equipped with an LMG, smoke/CS grenades and a couple of 70mm rockets - surely that would reduce the training delta when stepping up to a heavier gun on a heavier vehicle?

And in the meantime, showing up to the next demonstration with a C9 on a turret might make a statement.

 

[MilEME09]

It however is not practical on much smaller than the 8x8 LAV 3+ or a tracked APC/IFV.

The gun needs a stable chassis.

Get the new truck version of the Senator, mount the turret in the bed so it's more stable and lower.

 

[KevinB]

Get the new truck version of the Senator, mount the turret in the bed so it's more stable and lower.

That gun is more powerful than the 25mm Bushmaster on the LAV.

A Ford 950 (yeah I know they don’t exist but bear with me) wouldn’t do well with it either…

 

[MilEME09]

That gun is more powerful than the 25mm Bushmaster on the LAV.

A Ford 950 (yeah I know they don’t exist but bear with me) wouldn’t do well with it either…

Oh I wasn't thinking the heavily cal stuff, more the missile platforms etc

 

[KevinB]

Oh I wasn't thinking the heavily cal stuff, more the missile platforms etc

I’m still of the option a SR Point Defense Missile system needs to be either very light so it can get dug in as best it can - or on an armored vehicle that is capable of moving with the maneuver forces.

 

[MilEME09]

I’m still of the option a SR Point Defense Missile system needs to be either very light so it can get dug in as best it can - or on an armored vehicle that is capable of moving with the maneuver forces.

With AD I'd argue we need a platform as part of rear area security needs to be fast to reposition quickly. Speed vs armour.

 

[Kirkhill]

With AD I'd argue we need a platform as part of rear area security needs to be fast to reposition quickly. Speed vs armour.

And there needs to be lots of them because the entire rear area, extending across oceans to factories, warehouses and ports, are all at risk of disruption. A DJI with a stolen M67 would cause a lot of soul searching at Pearson, Dundurn or GDOTS-Canada. Pumping stations. Tank farms. Transfer points......

 

[Kirkhill]

That gun is more powerful than the 25mm Bushmaster on the LAV.

A Ford 950 (yeah I know they don’t exist but bear with me) wouldn’t do well with it either…

Which 30 are you talking about? The 30x173 used by Rheinmetall on its Skyranger 30 series with AHEAD ammunition? Or the 30x113 used by the AH-64 M-230 and the MSHORAD?

30x173 SAPHEI = 363g x 1100m/s x 1100m/s /2 = 220 kJ
25x137 SAPHEI = 185g x 1100m/s x 1100m/s /2 = 110 kJ
30x113 APHEI-SD = 270g x 810m/s x 810m/s /2 = 89 kJ
12.7x99 M20 API-T = 40g x 887m/s x 887m/s /2 = 15 kJ

The Army is eying a new all-in-one proximity round for its 30mm chain guns

"With minimal ammunition, the commander and crew are able to defeat three distinct threats.”

taskandpurpose.com

Northrop Grumman: new life to the M230LF - EDR Magazine

To improve the Northrop Grumman M230LF effectiveness against UAS and to further widen its capabilities, a number of improvements are in the pipeline.

www.edrmagazine.eu

Following the M230LF fielding in theatre in different roles the US military, which call it XM914, issued a Request for Information for additional M-LIDS (Mobile-Low, slow, small unmanned aircraft Integrated Defeat System) in which the Northrop Grumman chain gun finding is the hard-kill Counter-UAS effector. With a weight less than 73 kg without ammunition and a recoil force of less than 7,400 N, it can be fitted to many RCWS designed for hosting 12.7 mm heavy machine guns. The M230LF chain gun can shoot single shot, controlled burst, and full automatic, in the latter mote the firing rate reaching 200 rounds per minute, and provides a lethality range of over 2,000 meters.

 

[KevinB]

Which 30 are you talking about? The 30x173 used by Rheinmetall on its Skyranger 30 series with AHEAD ammunition? Or the 30x113 used by the AH-64 M-230 and the MSHORAD?

30x173 SAPHEI = 363g x 1100m/s x 1100m/s /2 = 220 kJ
25x137 SAPHEI = 185g x 1100m/s x 1100m/s /2 = 110 kJ
30x113 APHEI-SD = 270g x 810m/s x 810m/s /2 = 89 kJ
12.7x99 M20 API-T = 40g x 887m/s x 887m/s /2 = 15 kJ

The Army is eying a new all-in-one proximity round for its 30mm chain guns

"With minimal ammunition, the commander and crew are able to defeat three distinct threats.”

taskandpurpose.com

Northrop Grumman: new life to the M230LF - EDR Magazine

To improve the Northrop Grumman M230LF effectiveness against UAS and to further widen its capabilities, a number of improvements are in the pipeline.

www.edrmagazine.eu

View attachment 84139

I thought the XM914 on the MSHORAD was 30x173mm. Simply due to the literature from the Army about the AHEAD and commonality with other AD 35mm guns.

Honestly I’ve never been enamored with the 30mm on the AH-64 for anything but lighter systems that can’t deal with a big 30mm.

 

[Good2Golf]

I thought the XM914 on the MSHORAD was 30x173mm. Simply due to the literature from the Army about the AHEAD and commonality with other AD 35mm guns.

Honestly I’ve never been enamored with the 30mm on the AH-64 for anything but lighter systems that can’t deal with a big 30mm.

Yup.

Sometimes 30mm ≠ 30mm.

 

[Kirkhill]

Yup.

Sometimes 30mm ≠ 30mm.


View attachment 84143

But if the effect is delivered by a secondary bursting charge and shrapnel vs a solid shot carrying the muzzle energy then surely difference between the 30x173 vs 30x113 is mitigated somewhat?

Both the 30x113 MMPA and the 30x173 AHEAD rely on the projectile exploding and scattering debris in the flight path of an oncoming object.

The 30x113 projectile weighs 270 g while the 30x173 weighs 363 g.

A single 173 is going to carry more lethality to the target but both the 113 and the 173 are going to be fired in bursts. The gunner will have to fire more 113s than 173s to put the same amount of shrapnel in the air but the 113s are smaller and lighter.....

The big difference I see is that the engagement distance for the 113 will be a lot shorter than that of the 173.

I think....

Also - the 30x113 looks to be something of a GP solution aiming to do the jobs of both the HMG and the GMG.

 

[Kirkhill]

Apparently the Stryker Dragoon is fitted with the Bushmaster II Mk44 which shoots the 30x173.

After comparative testing of the Kongsberg MCRWS mounted to Stryker vehicles, the U.S. Army approved in April 2015 the equipping of 81 of the 2nd Cavalry Regiment's Strykers with 30 mm cannons after the unit requested the upgrade. Reviews of the effectiveness of these new turrets in Stryker companies informed decisions regarding the upgrade of more Strykers across the nine Stryker Brigades.[83][84] The remote turret requires a modification of the hull roof, and adds two tons of weight[85] with an upgraded suspension and wider tires.[86] Outfitting the first Strykers with Mk44 Bushmaster II cannons was planned to occur during the next two years, it was stated in 2015.[87]

Stryker - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Mk44 Bushmaster II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Given the problems they are/were having with Oshkosh delivering on that order -

GAO: US Army should improve acquisition processes after Stryker upgrade issues - Army Technology

The US Army sought to improve the combat capabilities of the Stryker 8x8 vehicles after analysis found a disparity compared to rivals.

www.army-technology.com

Upgunned Stryker’s software problems 'resolved,' says Army two-star - Breaking Defense

Soldiers will begin receiving the Strykers outfitted with 30mm cannons next fall, or roughly nine months to a year later than initially anticipated.

breakingdefense.com

Perhaps they should have just gone with the Rheinmetall Skyranger30 turret instead.

 

[McG]

Honestly I’ve never been enamored with the 30mm on the AH-64 for anything but lighter systems that can’t deal with a big 30mm.

30x113 mm is the compromise for when you think 100% of your lighter vehicles always need both .50 cal and 40 mm AGL.

 

[KevinB]

30x113 mm is the compromise for when you think 100% of your lighter vehicles always need both .50 cal and 40 mm AGL.

I’m not sure it’s a great compromise.

The 40mm AGL and .50 offer different options both in terms of payload and trajectory that can have advantages over one system alone.

I get it for the AH-64, but if I have 4 vehicles, I’d rather have the option for 2 .50 (be it M2, M3/GAU-21, or GAU-19) and 2 GMG (Hk or Mk19).

The AH-64 has missile and rockets too, so the 30mm isn’t the primary weapon available. Unless folks start putting the MSHORAD turret on more platforms to give Hellfire/Stinger options, I’ll take the .50/GMG setups for GP work.


I’m really not understanding why the M/SHORAD LAV didn’t get the x173 like the upgunned Stryker, as the availability of rounds is significantly higher and very specific AD rounds are available. It would then also allow it to use the 30mm APFSDS-DU round for emergency AT capability.

 

[Kirkhill]

So @KevinB

What do you think of the McClellan saddle?

 

[OldSolduer]

So @KevinB

What do you think of the McClellan saddle?

the what??

 

[GK .Dundas]

So @KevinB

What do you think of the McClellan saddle?

BRAHAAAAHHAAH ROFLMAO !
The important question is sling or bucket?

 

[KevinB]

the what??

Basically the standard US Saddle for the Civil war till today.

I didn’t appreciate all the history of it - it reminded me of a mule ( as i had believed it to be sort of blend of Western saddles and English. As until @Kirkhill had mentioned it all I knew of its genesis was the originator and the wives tales of it being a hybrid, and had not realized that it was actually a modification of the Hungarian Cavalry saddle )