Somehow a Fitness Thread from a "Kiwi shoe polish" Thread

[childs56]

I don’t think walking 12k with a light load for time was going to help there. Testing does not equal training.

Our Fighting order was around 33ish pounds, then another 55-60 for rucks seemed like a fair weight for testing purpose. You could load up with two 5 gallon jug in the area of 80ish pounds (Wainwright or Shilo water would be another 10lbs for the silt)

Honest question is English your first language?

Honest answer..................yup

Could you please explain, from a fitness perspective. What “hand stamina” is.

its called using your hands for work. manipulating tools, such as ratchets, screw drivers, nuts, bolts, cotter pins fittings etc.

No but we need to establish a baseline and ensure our members are capable of achieving it.

The base lines are and can be different. We try to force an all in one fix, then it doesn't work well for anyone.

No, no they can’t they think they’ll rise to the occasion. But they will not. They will fall to their fitness. Making people training to get up and sprint is important. Much more important that mindless 5 k runs.

Can you give an example to a recent time where this happened?
5km runs suck, 8 km ones suck even more and 10km much more. (thanks B Bty 1 RCHA first day work ups 2000 trying to make the hung over out of shape Reservists suffer and fall out from your initial 2k, then 5k, then 6 k, then 8 k, then finally 10 k run)

Well that was constructive

I agree. Techs have Techy things to do.

 

[Quirky]

One of the big advantages of FORCE over EXPRES and BFT is that it is gender, environment and trade blind.

Except it’s not given the issues with the factors being tested as listed above. Another thing is the issues with retention and manning being a massive problem. Perfectly employable people in their specific trades are either being injured or unable to meet the minimum standard. Use a clerk for example, they can do their jobs behind the desk, however they can be released because they can’t lift or drag bags. The question arrises is how useful is it for a clerk, for example, to lift or drag sand bags when it’s not part of their daily task list. In a perfect world the CAF can have its cake and eat it too, but we’re at a point where every single person matters. I don’t support keeping unfit people in the CAF, but at some point, something has to give.

 

[dapaterson]

How about that Polish, Kiwi, Black?

A rugby player from Poland on the New Zealand national team?

 

[childs56]

Ok, so again, this has all been covered. There was a reply farther up exploring the structure of the FORCE test and how DRDC actually assessed common military tasks, and identified proxy tasks that could be done with minimal equipment, and assess a troop’s fitness to the minimum necessary standard.

A sandbag is just a proxy for weight. It could be ammunition, jerries of fuel because the FFAR got hit, the upper half of your buddy whose lower half lost a fight with a Tochka, a major piece of FOD that’s obstructing the ramp/runway, or what have you.

Lifting a sand bag is different then a jerry can, ammo can tire, case of beer, keg, gun barrel etc.

Lifting up half your buddy or dealing with high operations moments are way different. Adrenaline come into play more so then anything else. The life of Private Desmond Doss should be a eye opener to anyone.

 

[brihard]

Except it’s not given the issues with the factors being tested as listed above. Another thing is the issues with retention and manning being a massive problem. Perfectly employable people in their specific trades are either being injured or unable to meet the minimum standard. Use a clerk for example, they can do their jobs behind the desk, however they can effectively be released because they can’t lift or drag bags. The question arrises is how useful is it for a clerk, for example, to lift or drag sand bags when it’s not part of their daily task list. In a perfect world the CAF can have its cake and eat it too, but we’re at a point where every single person matters. I don’t support keeping unfit people in the CAF, but at some point, something has to give.

Then civilianize the position. Same goes for any trade or role you would make that argument for.

War is not a daily task, but if it happens, anyone could end up in the mix. That's why anyone who could end up compulsorily deployed to a war zone could need that degree of fitness. When I was doing convoys in Afghanistan, we absolutely have clerks, Mat Techs, and MSE ops out holding a rifle on the long halts. Any of them could have found themselves trying to get a casualty up into the back of an RG31, or helping change a vehicle tire, or doing TCCC, or repelling an ambush.

We have video after video from Ukraine showing administrative hubs, logistical sites, maintenance facilities, and, yes, airfields being hit, with debris and casualties as immediate problems. If a position needs to be deployable, or contribute to force generating deployable forces, then they need to be CAF members who can operate in and contribute to the bigger picture in his context. That can include some physicality.

There are a lot of jobs out there that require physical strength and fitness and that don't afford the luxury of time off on duty to work out, yet the person is still expected to be able to do their job. Absolutely CAF should build in time for fitness where operationally feasible, but an attitude of 'if it's not on duty time, I should have to do it' is spoiled and ineffective.

 

[markppcli]

Our Fighting order was around 33ish pounds, then another 55-60 for rucks seemed like a fair weight for testing purpose. You could load up with two 5 gallon jug in the area of 80ish pounds (Wainwright or Shilo water would be another 10lbs for the silt)

Total weight for the BFT was 50 lbs inclusive. It was a joke, and offered little more than a challenge in boredom.

Honest answer..................yup

its called using your hands for work. manipulating tools, such as ratchets, screw drivers, nuts, bolts, cotter pins fittings etc.

so no. What you’re talking about is physical adaption for work. It’s really not testable and will of course happen over time. Those people who handle tools still need to be able to achieve some base line tactical tasks.

The base lines are and can be different. We try to force an all in one fix, then it doesn't work well for anyone.

Can you give an example to a recent time where this happened?

We’ll happily no, because we only deploy people who pass the force test so we know they can move to cover.


A base line is just that; we test to ensure everyone hits a bare minimum. The we train above that.

5km runs suck, 8 km ones suck even more and 10km much more. (thanks B Bty 1 RCHA first day work ups 2000 trying to make the hung over out of shape Reservists suffer and fall out from your initial 2k, then 5k, then 6 k, then 8 k, then finally 10 k run)

then don’t be out of shape.

Long steady state cardio has a place, absolutely. But most soldiers will need to have explosive periods of movement interspersed with short breaks. Ie I’m up, he sees me I’m down I shoot im up… ect. So forcing training for that is a good thing. We have plenty of long distance runners who suffer and those things especially on the force combat.

I agree. Techs have Techy things to do.

I’m sure the techs in the Ukrainian Airforce though the same thing when their air fields started getting hit.

 

[dapaterson]

There are established common tasks all CAF members must be able to perform. The elements of the FORCE test are valid scientific predictors of success in those tasks, designed to be conducted with minimal, inexpensive equipment.

For those unable to complete the FORCE test there is the CMFTE, which is a full day (or so) to complete.

 

[childs56]

What are the tests for the US Marine Corps, US Army, US Navy, US Airforce, British Army like compared to our test.

 

[Furniture]

There are a lot of jobs out there that require physical strength and fitness and that don't afford the luxury of time off on duty to work out, yet the person is still expected to be able to do their job. Absolutely CAF should build in time for fitness where operationally feasible, but an attitude of 'if it's not on duty time, I should have to do it' is spoiled and ineffective.

I disagree with this part.

The CAF needs to rebuild a culture of fitness, and it can't do it with that sort of attitude. Too many bosses look at PT as a luxury, and not a requirement, which leads to skipping/cancelling PT, or members being given a hard time for taking their PT time from work. Then people being given a hard time because they aren't "fit enough" after passing the test.

Likely more of a support trade thing, but still an issue the CAF has.

 

[markppcli]

What are the tests for the US Marine Corps, US Army, US Navy, US Airforce, British Army like compared to our test.

www.google.com

 

[Quirky]

Then civilianize the position.

That seems to the answer to our manning issues these days. Ironically, these positions are filled by the same people, or people in worse physical shape, yet they can still do their jobs effectively. The support staff positions are being converted to civy to keep the pointy end sharp. Issue with that is, the pointy end is dulling out.

 

[childs56]

www.google.com

The google shows all different elements have their own test, Different Militaries have their own test. No standards other then what the current people in charge feel is right.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Just do away with DEU entirely. Problem solved.

Why not? Someone decided this (first picture) was approbate dress for standing guard on the tomb of the unknown soldier. In that case what's wrong with this second picture?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don't mind the force test. But for the RCN I think some sort of Fireman's test would be more practical/applicable.

But I don't really care.

Oh and I just bought some Kiwi off Amazon, that's should be enough for the remainder of my time in the CAF. @Bruce Monkhouse see I'm trying to keep it on track and continue the derail simultaneously!

 

[MilEME09]

I’m sure the techs in the Ukrainian Airforce though the same thing when their air fields started getting hit.

No amount of fitness can save you from a 1000lb ALCM striking your hanger

 

[markppcli]

No amount of fitness can save you from a 1000lb ALCM striking your hanger

Not but it will help you drag your buddy out of it after.

 

[markppcli]

The google shows all different elements have their own test, Different Militaries have their own test. No standards other than what the current people in charge feel is right.

Well not true, the USMC has the same standard for its air craft technicians as it does its infantry.

 

[Quirky]

Not but it will help you drag your buddy out of it after.

I don’t think the Ukrainians care much about fitness standards in a general mobilization. When your country is invaded, all these DAG green problems are erased. If Canada was being invaded, there won’t be time for FORCE testing, everyone is working.

 

[childs56]

I don't mind the force test. But for the RCN I think some sort of Fireman's test would be more practical/applicable.

But I don't really care.

Oh and I just bought some Kiwi off Amazon, that's should be enough for the remainder of my time in the CAF. @Bruce Monkhouse see I'm trying to keep it on track and continue the derail simultaneously!

Good to know there is still some source for Kiwi polish

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not but it will help you drag your buddy out of it after.

Old buddy, I think you're reaching.

We, the CAF, are addicted all things Army as the common baseline, when for the majority of the CAF an Army baseline standard is really not that applicable. It's all part of the JArmy illness we have.

And this isn't just aimed at fitness standards.