No more uniforms in court

[Weinie]

Oh, for an AO, sure- if their duties require civilian clothes, yeah, pay the casual allowance for whatever it’s called. Though I would hope that any assisting officer would have at least some sort of appropriate civilian clothing. It’s not like they’re going on the stand.


Court is invariably on weekdays, during normal duty hours for most CAF members. Last I checked, CAF gets to prescribe your order of dress. I’ve been out a couple of years but is that not still the case? In any event, why would you wear medals to your own criminal trial other than to try to influence the court or jury with shinies? CAF is fully in the right to prohibit this, as it looks like an accused leveraging military status for leniency.



Bloody right. Any of us on trial for alleged offences will not be wearing a police uniform to our trial. Testifying as a witness? Sure, might be in uniform, might be in a suit, usually depends on what our normal duties are that day before and after court. If I’m on a 0600-1800 shift on the road and I’m a trial witness at 10, I’m probably there in uniform. If my normal job is plainclothes, I’m likely there in that.

At the end of the day, why WOULD a CAF member be permitted to wear their uniform to civil court as the accused in a criminal trial? CAF absolutely has the right to prohibit that and to protect its image.

He earned every one of those medals. Canada awarded him them. Now you are saying that he can't wear them?

 

[brihard]

What happens if they are a Reservist? Duhduhduh!

The CAF going to pay them to not wear medals

Who said anything about leniency?

Did Mark Norman wear his medals for leniency? You're talking about sentencing dude, not the actual trial itself.

Not just leniency in sentencing. The forming of perceptions from the moment one walks into court. The evaluation of credibility. The weighting of evidence. Again, why should a CAF member be allowed to wear uniform when criminally charged and tried in civil court?

 

[brihard]

He earned every one of those medals. Canada awarded him them. Now you are saying that he can't wear them?

No I’m not, the CANFORGEN is saying that, under authority of the VCDS. I just happen to agree with it. If a person is on duty and the military dictates a certain order of dress, they can specify whether medals are to be worn or not, no different from literally everything a CAF member does during their work day. If someone is not subject to the Code of Service Discipline, or no longer in CAF, and wants to wear medals with civilian attire, I guess nothing is stopping them, but a RegF member seems to be subject to this 24/7.

Does the military chain of command no longer have the authority to prescribe orders of dress for certain activities when a member is on duty of otherwise subject to the CSD?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

He earned every one of those medals. Canada awarded him them. Now you are saying that he can't wear them?

They aren't allowed to have pride anymore

No just leniency in sentencing. The forming of perceptions from the moment one walks into court. The evaluation of credibility. The weighting of evidence. Again, why should a CAF member be allowed to wear uniform when criminally charged and tried in civil court?

It's a civilian court, the CAF should have no say in what someone wears to that Court. If they wanted a say, they should have kept everything in house.

They most definitely shouldn't get a say whether they wear medals or not. I can throw my medals on whenever I wish, they belong to me and only me. They are meant to be a public display of my service.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

He earned every one of those medals. Canada awarded him them. Now you are saying that he can't wear them?

Sure they can,...when wearing a Legion of Frontiersmen uniform,.....while wearing the uniform of your employer methinks you wear it as they tell you.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Although I am excited to see this play out. I can't wait until the first lawyer claims the CAF is interfering in the proceedings

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

It's a civilian court, the CAF should have no say in what someone wears to that Court. If they wanted a say, they should have kept everything in house.

You beating your wife should be kept "in house?"

 

[SeaKingTacco]

So, just to stir the pot- is there any sound reason to wear uniforms at a Court Martial?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

You beating your wife should be kept "in house?"

You get my point Bruce? The CAF wants to have its cake and eat it.

Again, interested to see how this all plays out . snickers in civilian

 

[brihard]

They aren't allowed to have pride anymore



It's a civilian court, the CAF should have no say in what someone wears to that Court. If they wanted a say, they should have kept everything in house.

They most definitely shouldn't get a say whether they wear medals or not. I can throw my medals on whenever I wish, they belong to me and only me. They are meant to be a public display of my service.

I take more of an issue with the uniform than the medals. As I said, if someone’s not subject to CSD and wants to wear gongs with their suit, fine, largely for the reasons you give. But I do still believe in military discipline, and CAF does get to say how its members shall dress when subject to CSD. Members are going to be attending court during duty hours when they would otherwise be at work, because that’s when court runs. CAF is obligated to respect a summons or other order for a member to appear, but also gets to say if that member can wear CAF uniform or not. I suppose an alternative could be to LWOP members for the purpose of court attendance as an accused, but that would be problematic for other reasons and I’m not personally in favour of that for presumption of innocence reasons.

I’m absolutely fine with CAF taking steps to prevent the accused in a criminal trial from leveraging their service through the wearing of uniform to gain a favourable perception in civil courts. Again, why should an accused be wearing military uniform in a court that’s not military?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

So, just to stir the pot- is there any sound reason to wear uniforms at a Court Martial?

We should just wear whatever we want at this point.

 

[Weinie]

You get my point Bruce? The CAF wants to have its cake and eat it.

Again, interested to see how this all plays out . snickers in civilian

This is fucking ridiculous. If a military member is being trialed on an sexual assault case, who cares what s/he wears to court. It makes no difference whatever,the evidence will play out. I'm done remonstrating.

 

[kratz]

Professionals use titles, credentials and other approved forms of achievement in court proceedings.
Medals have been honourably earned and awarded by the Crown. Why wouldn't someone wear them with pride to court?

Court is invariably on weekdays, during normal duty hours for most CAF members. Last I checked, CAF gets to prescribe your order of dress. I’ve been out a couple of years but is that not still the case? In any event, why would you wear medals to your own criminal trial other than to try to influence the court or jury with shinies? CAF is fully in the right to prohibit this, as it looks like an accused leveraging military status for leniency.

 

[brihard]

This is fucking ridiculous. If a military member is being trialed on a sexual assault case, who cares what s/he wears to court. It makes no difference whatever,the evidence will play out. I'm done remonstrating.

Apparently victims do… That’s how this whole thing came about. I think so do at least some others who care about the image of the institution.

Professionals use titles, credentials and other approved forms of achievement in court proceedings.
Medals have been honourably earned and awarded by the Crown. Why wouldn't someone wear them with pride to court?

See my replies above ref uniform vs medals, orders of dress, CSD etc. We may have cross-posted.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Professionals use titles, credentials and other approved forms of achievement in court proceedings.
Medals have been honourably earned and awarded by the Crown. Why wouldn't someone wear them with pride to court?

Lawyers and judges also use them, and also wear medals.

I also find it a bit rich that we have people comparing the military to law enforcement when LEOs gain favour in Court simply due to their status as sworn peace officers

 

[brihard]

Lawyers and judges also use them, and also wear medals.

I also find it a bit rich that we have people comparing the military to law enforcement when LEOs gain favour in Court simply due to their status as sworn peace officers

I guess that just circles right back to the professional experience and credentials thing then, eh? But in this case I think it was mentioned because it’s explicitly referenced in the CANFORGEN.

 

[mariomike]

Again, why should an accused be wearing military uniform in a court that’s not military?

Good question.

 

[Ostrozac]

In any event, why would you wear medals to your own criminal trial other than to try to influence the court or jury with shinies?

Witness intimidation comes to mind.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Apparently victims do… That’s how this whole thing came about. I think so do at least some others who care about the image of the institution.


See my replies above ref uniform vs medals, orders of dress, CSD etc. We may have cross-posted.

Reg Force members are subjected to CSD 24/7/365 so saying it's because Court is "during working hours" is kind of irrelevant no?

I actually don't really think the Military has any say what someone can and can't do in a civilian court. re: wearing of medals and its an overstep on the CAFs part.

The CAF abdicated that right when they sent these cases to the civilian courts.

I think of this man when I think of this order:

 

[Weinie]

Sure they can,...when wearing a Legion of Frontiersmen uniform,.....while wearing the uniform of your employer methinks you wear it as they tell you.

Not sure that your post approached my post, but you do you.