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Mandatory Service in Canada (split fm Ukraine - Superthread)

My personal thoughts on conscription is it is inherently wrong. You should never force someone to do something they do not want to do, even if it is a matter of national survival. I know I hated my time in the Navy and I volunteered for that. I can only imagine how miserable it is if you didn't even choose to be there.

I think the way to go for something like this is more of the carrot route. Provide free education for those that go into the Reserves and stay in for 'x' number of years. Provide some sort of tax benefit which is a long term thing (people who qualify for veteran status have a permanently reduced tax rate as a simple example, which would also encourage the wealthy to get their children involved). I am sure other benefits can be found as well.

I remember when I was in cadets, there were always a bunch of kids who didn't want to be there and who were forced in by their parents. Either we were being treating like a baby-sitting service, or the parents thought their kid was the next top-gun. Not unlike hockey parents who think their kid is going to be the next NHL superstar. If it were the latter, the parents themselves would become CIs, and then you'd see the meddling, where their kid is always up for promotion, and getting opportunities that should had gone to the more capable and deserving cadets who had put in the work. In the microcosm of what was my air cadet squadron, I saw how political interference destroys meritocracy. And this was precisely why I didn't join the CAF and instead opted for the private sector. I could only have imagined such nonsense on a larger scale.

Tax incentives to join, free education, while well meaning will not persuade a smart person to join the CAF.

If I want to, I can easily lower my taxes by moving to another country. Thanks to the internet, I can still make my dollars in USD or CAD. But give tax incentives to veterans and then people will inevitably look at the pool of mostly white men receiving this benefit and ask why those benefits also aren't being offered to the indigenous, or people of color? And before you know it, your well meaning tax benefit is whittled down to nothing as its dispersed to a larger cohort of people, or worse, is used as a reason to stifle wages paid to current CAF members.

Education in of itself is overvalued outside of STEM and technical training. In order for something to have value, it has to be scarce and thanks to student loans, higher education is now common place among the population. I'm in a field that has an acute shortage of people with certain technical skills. We'd normally ask for a 2 or 3 year diploma, but now we're simply looking for people with a demonstrated work ethic that we can train up from scratch. In the current worker shortage, the diploma simply isn't needed, so then what is the value of higher education in such circumstances?

If mandatory service is made law, or simply incentivized with goodies, politics will find it's way into the process somehow. Conscription will never apply equally and uniformly, there will always be voices who think they deserve more, that they deserve special treatment. You can't escape the fact that war is gruesome and ugly. Serving means that you give up part of your sovereignty and personal autonomy, while accepting the risk of suffering heinous injury or even death itself. Wanting to fight for your country is an intrinsic value that comes from within, and in order to raise a large fighting force, the majority of the population needs to feel that their country is worth fighting for.

Right now, to afford rent for a modest 1 bedroom apartment in Canada, you now need to make around 75k a year. Young people, even middle aged and older professionals can barley afford to live in the places in which they work. An entire generation is about to give up on home ownership. Some countries are now floating the idea of 50 and 60 year mortgages which means, your children will pay for the house you bought. In other words, indentured servitude. Compared to other countries our taxes are insanely high, but the trade-off was always that we got better services, and free health care. But with the collapse of hospitals, airports and other services, we're not getting what we pay for. We've been told that the environment is more important than our livelihood and so we've gutted our natural resource industries that previously supplied Canadians with meaningful, well paying jobs. If we hadn't done this, we'd have a hedge against today's hyper-inflation. And then the mandates, wokeism, etc. Rather than deal with the issues at hand that affect every day Canadians, we're lectured about our internal racism and carbon footprint, and how climate change is the real issue and is somehow directly caused by our inherent internal racism. I can go on about the nonsensory.

My point is that before we have any discussion on conscription or mandatory service, we need to have drastic, top-to-bottom political reform in this country. You want me to fight for Canada? Then convince me that Canada still works for Canadians. Until then, no thanks, I won't do it. I'll move to warmer pastures elsewhere before I ever set foot in a swearing-in ceremony, and I'll advise the young Canadians to do the same.
 
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My point is that before we have any discussion on conscription or mandatory service, we need to have drastic, top-to-bottom political reform in this country. You want me to fight for Canada? Then convince me that Canada still works for Canadians. Until then, no thanks, I won't do it. I'll move to warmer pastures elsewhere before I ever set foot in a swearing-in ceremony, and I'll advise the young Canadians to do the same.

We don't really need conscription because, luckily, teenagers love the military because you get to blow things up and be paid for the privilege...

... feeding the Leopards is fun too ;)

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I remember when I was in cadets, there were always a bunch of kids who didn't want to be there and who were forced in by their parents. Either we were being treating like a baby-sitting service, or the parents thought their kid was the next top-gun. Not unlike hockey parents who think their kid is going to be the next NHL superstar. If it were the latter, the parents themselves would become CIs, and then you'd see the meddling, where their kid is always up for promotion, and getting opportunities that should had gone to the more capable and deserving cadets who had put in the work. In the microcosm of what was my air cadet squadron, I saw how political interference destroys meritocracy. And this was precisely why I didn't join the CAF and instead opted for the private sector. I could only have imagined such nonsense on a larger scale.
Doesn't really happen like that when you get to the actual CAF. Is there some 'political interference'? Yes. Is it commonplace? No. Certainly less common place than the private sector where I have seen some of the most obvious examples of nepotism, cronyism, and blatant discrimination. Cadets is a completely different animal and it is really going to depend on the unit and the 'leadership'.
Tax incentives to join, free education, while well meaning will not persuade a smart person to join the CAF.
I know some smart people who have joined and some smart people who have not. Incentives are simply there to sweeten the pot, not guarantee anyone joins.
If I want to, I can easily lower my taxes by moving to another country. Thanks to the internet, I can still make my dollars in USD or CAD. But give tax incentives to veterans and then people will inevitably look at the pool of mostly white men receiving this benefit and ask why those benefits also aren't being offered to the indigenous, or people of color? And before you know it, your well meaning tax benefit is whittled down to nothing as its dispersed to a larger cohort of people, or worse, is used as a reason to stifle wages paid to current CAF members.
Many people don't want to move and I personally am one of those people. This is about Canada and choosing to serve Canadians. Spit balling potential benefits to encourage people to join, specifically with the tax benefit I am thinking wealthier families as right now there really isn't that much to encourage them to have a family member join.
Education in of itself is overvalued outside of STEM and technical training. In order for something to have value, it has to be scarce and thanks to student loans, higher education is now common place among the population. I'm in a field that has an acute shortage of people with certain technical skills. We'd normally ask for a 2 or 3 year diploma, but now we're simply looking for people with a demonstrated work ethic that we can train up from scratch. In the current worker shortage, the diploma simply isn't needed, so then what is the value of higher education in such circumstances?
This isn't about the value or lack thereof of education, rather a incentive to try and convince to join. Many people desire education rightly or wrongly. Paying for it to get a member is a small cost in the long term, especially considering the government subsidizes most of it to begin with.
If mandatory service is made law, or simply incentivized with goodies, politics will find it's way into the process somehow. Conscription will never apply equally and uniformly, there will always be voices who think they deserve more, that they deserve special treatment. You can't escape the fact that war is gruesome and ugly. Serving means that you give up part of your sovereignty and personal autonomy, while accepting the risk of suffering heinous injury or even death itself. Wanting to fight for your country is an intrinsic value that comes from within, and in order to raise a large fighting force, the majority of the population needs to feel that their country is worth fighting for.
Politics is always part of the process no matter what process it is.
Right now, to afford rent for a modest 1 bedroom apartment in Canada, you now need to make around 75k a year. Young people, even middle aged and older professionals can barley afford to live in the places in which they work. An entire generation is about to give up on home ownership. Some countries are now floating the idea of 50 and 60 year mortgages which means, your children will pay for the house you bought. In other words, indentured servitude. Compared to other countries our taxes are insanely high, but the trade-off was always that we got better services, and free health care. But with the collapse of hospitals, airports and other services, we're not getting what we pay for. We've been told that the environment is more important than our livelihood and so we've gutted our natural resource industries that previously supplied Canadians with meaningful, well paying jobs. If we hadn't done this, we'd have a hedge against today's hyper-inflation. And then the mandates, wokeism, etc. Rather than deal with the issues at hand that affect every day Canadians, we're lectured about our internal racism and carbon footprint, and how climate change is the real issue and is somehow directly caused by our inherent internal racism. I can go on about the nonsensory.
Depends on where you live. Personally I am living the Canadian dream. I have a house, decent job, ability to enjoy nature, take part in traditional Canadian activities, etc. I am also in the sub 30 age group, the only people who need to give up on home ownership are those that choose to live in expensive markets. Plenty of opportunities out there in this country, just not necessarily in Toronto or Vancouver. You also have to be willing to get your hands dirty and work hard.
My point is that before we have any discussion on conscription or mandatory service, we need to have drastic, top-to-bottom political reform in this country. You want me to fight for Canada? Then convince me that Canada still works for Canadians. Until then, no thanks, I won't do it. I'll move to warmer pastures elsewhere before I ever set foot in a swearing-in ceremony, and I'll advise the young Canadians to do the same. Make your own decisions, but there is a lot worse out there than Canada. Even if it isn't perfect, we are still leagues above basically everyone else (there is a reason Canada consistently shares the #1 in the world with a few countries). I appreciate this, and your right many don't, but that is also because they are so shielded by this amazing country that they don't understand how good they have it.
 
Well a number of students in my wife's private high school are there to avoid conscription in their home country. As for the US, I think their big issue is the typical person who wants to join the military is looking at the current leadership and saying "No thanks". If Canada managed to start conscription, Likely they would select from a pool of draftee, who would be given a choice of Civil Defence Force or the military, till both quota's are filled. You could sweeten the pot by paying a bit better for any eligible draftee that volunteers for the military option or paying for post secondary stuff. Let's face it, being conscripted into the Canadian Army would likley not be a bad thing, unlike say the Russian Army.
 
Let's face it, being conscripted into the Canadian Army would likley not be a bad thing, unlike say the Russian Army.

Yes, that would be awesome. I can imagine the lengths to which some of them would go to get out of it ;)

clayne crawford fox GIF by Lethal Weapon
 
People who think that their home country is the end all and be all often never travelled anywhere outside of it. Don't get me wrong, I think Canada is a wonderful country, I just think it's headed downhill and fast. If things don't change, we're projected to have stagflation for 40 years. Our political class has squandered our natural gifts to appease a fringe minority of woke environmentalists and technocrats. Right now, the younger generation is being fleeced and disenfranchised to inflate the assets of the older generation. For a young person who is educated and/or talented, there is simply no good reason for them to stay here. They should go where they'll get a better deal, go where they are treated best. Emerging economies have clued into this and are offering visa programs to attract such individuals. Now I prefaced my previous post by saying that a smart person would not join the CAF. I stand by that statement but I'm also talking in generalities. Smart people will move to where they're allowed to thrive, and will be loyal to where they choose to live. Canada does not inspire that level of confidence in it's younger / smarter generation. But sure, there will always be people who are easily impressed by big explosions or notions of patriotism. Those people will always be in ample supply. But as long as things continue on this trajectory, Canada will not get the best of the best when it comes to recruiting. Not everyone needs a big organization or company behind them to earn a livelihood, and its easier than ever to strike out on your own and set your own course. Previous generations got something when they came back from war. A meaningful job, a home in the suburbs etc. That does not exist today. It seems like the last cohort that went off to war, after all that blood and sweat, was expected to shut up and disappear while the government of the day did it's thing. I'm sorry but I don't want to be treated like that. My time is valuable, my health is valuable, as in my life. Perhaps that's the hardball negotiator in me, I never sign onto a lob sided deal that doesn't benefit me. The CAF does not offer me anything I could not have attained on my own, and in that respect, I find notion of mandatory service is laughable right now. But again, it begins with the politics. Fix that and maybe someone like me, who otherwise would not be interested, would be more open to at least considering the possibility.
 
So . . . everyone who stays in the country, joins the CAF or stays in, is a rube?
 
... Add the criminal element so yeah that would be fun.

No conscription please.
Yup. Funny how some, once in while, say criminals should be forced to do military training to straighten them out. Yeah, there may be a (very?) FEW who would benefit, but funny how nobody ever says they should run them through a tough policing recruit program to guard their neighbourhoods. After all, training folks to be able to (ultimately, as a last resort) apply disciplined, controlled force to protect Canadians in both cases, right? ;)

Then again, I also remember asking a (now no longer) local politician that question when he brought up the idea, and he said something to the effect of, "no, no, no - you need a brain to be able to be a cop." No, he'd been neither - and there's a joke from his home country that the federal police patrol in pairs because one knows how to read, and one knows how to write, so .....
 
People who think that their home country is the end all and be all often never travelled anywhere outside of it. Don't get me wrong, I think Canada is a wonderful country, I just think it's headed downhill and fast. If things don't change, we're projected to have stagflation for 40 years. Our political class has squandered our natural gifts to appease a fringe minority of woke environmentalists and technocrats. Right now, the younger generation is being fleeced and disenfranchised to inflate the assets of the older generation. For a young person who is educated and/or talented, there is simply no good reason for them to stay here. They should go where they'll get a better deal, go where they are treated best. Emerging economies have clued into this and are offering visa programs to attract such individuals. Now I prefaced my previous post by saying that a smart person would not join the CAF. I stand by that statement but I'm also talking in generalities. Smart people will move to where they're allowed to thrive, and will be loyal to where they choose to live. Canada does not inspire that level of confidence in it's younger / smarter generation. But sure, there will always be people who are easily impressed by big explosions or notions of patriotism. Those people will always be in ample supply. But as long as things continue on this trajectory, Canada will not get the best of the best when it comes to recruiting. Not everyone needs a big organization or company behind them to earn a livelihood, and its easier than ever to strike out on your own and set your own course. Previous generations got something when they came back from war. A meaningful job, a home in the suburbs etc. That does not exist today. It seems like the last cohort that went off to war, after all that blood and sweat, was expected to shut up and disappear while the government of the day did it's thing. I'm sorry but I don't want to be treated like that. My time is valuable, my health is valuable, as in my life. Perhaps that's the hardball negotiator in me, I never sign onto a lob sided deal that doesn't benefit me. The CAF does not offer me anything I could not have attained on my own, and in that respect, I find notion of mandatory service is laughable right now. But again, it begins with the politics. Fix that and maybe someone like me, who otherwise would not be interested, would be more open to at least considering the possibility.

So you come on to a forum populated by current and former members of the CAF to tell them no smart person would join the CAF based on your limited experience in cadets because…reasons? 🤷‍♂️
 
Yup. Funny how some, once in while, say criminals should be forced to do military training to straighten them out. Yeah, there may be a (very?) FEW who would benefit, but funny how nobody ever says they should run them through a tough policing recruit program to guard their neighbourhoods. After all, training folks to be able to (ultimately, as a last resort) apply disciplined, controlled force to protect Canadians in both cases, right? ;)

Then again, I also remember asking a (now no longer) local politician that question when he brought up the idea, and he said something to the effect of, "no, no, no - you need a brain to be able to be a cop." No, he'd been neither - and there's a joke from his home country that the federal police patrol in pairs because one knows how to read, and one knows how to write, so .....
Many years ago some bright spark got the idea that maybe a "Tommy Prince Platoon" would be a good idea. Inner city indigenous kids who had no discipline at all being recruited and put in a special platoon. It did not work.
 
Criminals can make good soldiers, some people just require a bit of discipline and a path forward. One of the root causes of crime is lack of opportunity, and the military can be a opportunity. To be honest if I had a criminal record I likely wouldn't be able to effectively find work, which in turn would mean I would be stuck doing the worst jobs or committing crimes. I see it everyday at work, where one of the industrial cleaning companies locally only hires criminals because they know they can exploit them to do terrible jobs for next to nothing. I imagine those guys would make excellent soldiers as they are committed to working terrible jobs for nothing just to get by.

The militaries advantage is it them away from all their criminal friends (because it posts you across the country) and gives them a good paycheque, expectations, and a even playing field. It doesn't mean it will work for everyone, but it potentially can.
 
The militaries advantage is it them away from all their criminal friends (because it posts you across the country) and gives them a good paycheque, expectations, and a even playing field.

Especially when they are enrolled young and "moldable".
More likely to have a crime-free background with a ( relatively ) clean background check.

gives them a good paycheque, expectations, and a even playing field.

Important for applicants from a disadvantaged backgound.

Like the old saying, "You never had it so good."
 
Especially when they are enrolled young and "moldable".
More likely to have a crime-free background with a ( relatively ) clean background check.



Important for applicants from a disadvantaged backgound.

Like the old saying, "You never had it so good."

And if Florida wants to do it.... who can resist? ;)


Florida state Senator wants to bring back ‘join the military or go to jail’ for criminals​

You can join the Army, or you can go to jail. It’s an old cliche that’s more fiction than fact, and hasn’t been a common practice for decades. Now, a new proposal in the Florida legislature wants to once again offer military service as an alternative to jail time.

Filed on Dec. 21 by Sen. Darryl Rouson (D-St. Petersburg), SB1356 would allow those who are 25 years old or younger and facing less than four years of jail time for misdemeanor offenses to potentially enlist in the military. There are, of course, some caveats.

The bill would only apply if “the offender has not been convicted of an offense or, if the offender has prior convictions, is not a habitual felony offender, a habitual violent felony offender, or a violent career criminal.”

Additionally, one would have to pass the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) test, complete basic training and successfully serve an initial enlistment. Otherwise, it’s back to court and back to jail.

And the biggest caveat of all is, of course, that the all-volunteer military is under no obligation to accept anyone.

 
Can you imagine conscription and our medical system?

Calian doctor: Hey fella, tummy ache and you hurt your foot walking, how long off do you need?

Conscript: Oh make it 3 years. And don't forget to send a copy to VAC.
 
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