Mandatory Service in Canada (split fm Ukraine - Superthread)

[Brad Sallows]

Would it be constitutional if, instead, national service were set up with significant benefits for participating like tax breaks or educational scholarships?

Forget constitutional.

What's the point of endless discussion about effective military spending here if people are willing to divert money to entirely discretionary la-la objectives?

 

[brihard]

School is cumpisory (up to a certain grade/age). This could be considered as an extension of that (a 'Life Skills' course if you will) and the leaving age administratively upped. I haven't heard of sny constitutional challenges against the requirement to attend school.

Not precisely. First, there’s the homeschooling exemption. Second, there’s having graduated or achieved an equivalent credential. Compulsory school attendance for children and youths is exactly the sort of thing that is a reasonable limitation under s. 1 of the Charter.

More importantly, this all falls under provincial authority. The feds could not rely on provincial constitutional authority to legislate education to force non-consenting adults into some sort of national service program.

 

[mariomike]

Ontario is not all of Canada.

The didactic phase of PCP in other provinces is 2 to 4 months.

That's nice. PCP is a four semester Diploma program here.

There are other USAR teams and others could be stood up.

There are four HUSAR Task Forces in Canada.

Can-TF1-Vancouver B.C.

Can-TF2-Calgary AB

Can-TF3-Toronto ON

Can-TF4-Brandon, MB

- the military and emergency services are not a jobs program and have too much real work to do to babysit conscripts -

 

[Kilted]

Would it be constitutional if, instead, national service were set up with significant benefits for participating like tax breaks or educational scholarships?

We could also put up barriers for those who refuse national service similar to those are 5F'd. For example, they would not be able to work for any level of government. We could take it further and restrict certain benefits such as educational assistance (osap, etc), basically whatever we could restrict without infringing on the Charter. And yes, some of those thongs might require cooperation from the provinces.

Or you know, just completely amend the Charter.

 

[Kirkhill]

School is cumpisory (up to a certain grade/age). This could be considered as an extension of that (a 'Life Skills' course if you will) and the leaving age administratively upped. I haven't heard of sny constitutional challenges against the requirement to attend school.

You could ditch the Home Economics course - my military education included sewing, ironing, laundry, preparing meals, sanitation, keeping quarters clean... polishing boots etc.

And along the way I was taught which way to point a rifle and where the safety was.

 

[brihard]

We could also put up barriers for those who refuse national service similar to those are 5F'd. For example, they would not be able to work for any level of government. We could take it further and restrict certain benefits such as educational assistance (osap, etc), basically whatever we could restrict without infringing on the Charter. And yes, some of those thongs might require cooperation from the provinces.

Or you know, just completely amend the Charter.

Those would still be likely Charter breaches. The Charter applies more or less to all acts of the state and its agents. You’re trying to create a monstrosity here that our system of law simply does not allow for.

Also, the “5F = no government work” is a myth. Not sure why so many people think that’s true.

 

[OldSolduer]

Those would still be likely Charter breaches. The Charter applies more or less to all acts of the state and its agents. You’re trying to create a monstrosity here that our system of law simply does not allow for.

Also, the “5F = no government work” is a myth. Not sure why so many people think that’s true.

As you and I have stated there will never be conscription in Canada, barring an existential threat and even then it might be a stretch.

 

[Kirkhill]

Deleted and reposted in the right thread.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Was listening to the Chieftain interviewing a ex-Austrian Army Tanker and they talked about how conscription works for them. 25,000 regulars, every year they bring in 25,000 draftees from the pool, they get to select army or some sort of civil defense work. They also have 50,000 Reserves.

 

[OldSolduer]

Was listening to the Chieftain interviewing a ex-Austrian Army Tanker and they talked about how conscription works for them. 25,000 regulars, every year they bring in 25,000 draftees from the pool, they get to select army or some sort of civil defense work. They also have 50,000 Reserves.

They also have Russia in closer proximity than us. And they do worry about them.

Canada? A few well trained militia will turn back invaders......

 

[daftandbarmy]

As you and I have stated there will never be conscription in Canada, barring an existential threat and even then it might be a stretch.

Well, not in part of Canada anyways

The Conscription Crisis in Canada During World War Two - ppt download

Background Information By 1942, volunteer rates had dramatically declined. As a result, the Canadian government was worried that Canada would not be able to maintain an effective armed forces. The Solution? Conscription!

slideplayer.com

 

[crypto_fan]

I guarantee if you opened recruiting to folks applying to Immigrate to Canada as a "fast track' lane- even if it were a 3 year CE served and your family can be PRs while you're here, I imagine our recruiting problems would disappear overnight. Our ability to screen, train, feed, and house these troop are another entirely different issue though...

As for Ukraine, I'm certain they know what skill sets are needed at the front, because, well... they have a front they're trying to maintain. I doubt their recruits are put through the same paces as our troops, as we recruit with the belief we're going to have this person go the distance to IE25. Ukrainians expect these troops will all go back to civilian life once the Russians are defeated. They want to have their doctors, engineers, service industry workers, teachers, welders, etc. all back on the job to rebuild their society.

Bringing in people now is not the problem. It is bringing in the right people. Offer better terms of employment and you would have the same thing. I took a huge pay cut to join, as I wanted something different for bit. But I an guarantee if it doesn't get better I won't renew. Cool work/interesting work only goes so far when you can make 2 or 3x the money in the private sector.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

They also have Russia in closer proximity than us. And they do worry about them.

Canada? A few well trained militia will turn back invaders......

As long as they are drunk and Irish, but then I repeat myself....

 

[daftandbarmy]

As long as they are drunk and Irish, but then I repeat myself....

 

[OldSolduer]

As long as they are drunk and Irish, but then I repeat myself....

How about drunk, Russian and ill trained?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well if their invading Canada, it will be Naval Infantry, Spetsnaz or VDV, along with some of these.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Well if their invading Canada, it will be Naval Infantry, Spetsnaz or VDV, along with some of these.

We totally need a fleet of LCACs...

 

[ThunderCAT3000]

Even if you had mandatory service, the bigger challenge is finding people from the population who are fit, willing and able Now added to that all the woke nonsense and finding people who are willing to go along with all that they / them stuff. No thanks. The U.S. is struggling to find recruits because of this, and the demonstrated ineptitude and corruption of their leadership and political class. Sure you could force people in, threaten them with them with jail time or whatever, but most wont want to be there and will be useless to those around them. Most immigrants in Canada are here for themselves and will flee to back to where they came if asked to enroll. Rich people will find clever ways to defer enrollment or be exempted entirely, but as we are in a globalist economy, average people with means will exercise their travel rights and flee as well. Real or perceived, class inequality will rear it's ugly head as this will effetely whittle down the pool to poorer Canadians of fewer means. They'll ask why should they fight for a country in which they've been disenfranchised? The only way to secure a large fighting force to fend off an invasion is to make travel out of the country difficult, create food shortages and mass starvation, and guarantee 3 square meals a day if you join the military, as hunger is a motivator unlike anything else. By the looks of things, the Canadian government is right on track.

 

[brihard]

Even if you had mandatory service, the bigger challenge is finding people from the population who are fit, willing and able Now added to that all the woke nonsense and finding people who are willing to go along with all that they / them stuff. No thanks. The U.S. is struggling to find recruits because of this, and the demonstrated ineptitude and corruption of their leadership and political class. Sure you could force people in, threaten them with them with jail time or whatever, but most wont want to be there and will be useless to those around them. Most immigrants in Canada are here for themselves and will flee to back to where they came if asked to enroll. Rich people will find clever ways to defer enrollment or be exempted entirely, but as we are in a globalist economy, average people with means will exercise their travel rights and flee as well. Real or perceived, class inequality will rear it's ugly head as this will effetely whittle down the pool to poorer Canadians of fewer means. They'll ask why should they fight for a country in which they've been disenfranchised? The only way to secure a large fighting force to fend off an invasion is to make travel out of the country difficult, create food shortages and mass starvation, and guarantee 3 square meals a day if you join the military, as hunger is a motivator unlike anything else. By the looks of things, the Canadian government is right on track.

That, uh… That’s certainly one take.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Because they are treated with derision.

And because when they show up and say they know what they are doing, when in reality they do not. Just because your cadet corp had some full metal jacket type garbage going on because there wasn't enough supervision, doesn't mean that is how the CAF works.

School is cumpisory (up to a certain grade/age). This could be considered as an extension of that (a 'Life Skills' course if you will) and the leaving age administratively upped. I haven't heard of sny constitutional challenges against the requirement to attend school.

Considering it is illegal to discriminate based on age (which once you hit the age of majority comes into effect), good luck. Once their 18 you can't force them to be in school any longer.

My personal thoughts on conscription is it is inherently wrong. You should never force someone to do something they do not want to do, even if it is a matter of national survival. I know I hated my time in the Navy and I volunteered for that. I can only imagine how miserable it is if you didn't even choose to be there.

I think the way to go for something like this is more of the carrot route. Provide free education for those that go into the Reserves and stay in for 'x' number of years. Provide some sort of tax benefit which is a long term thing (people who qualify for veteran status have a permanently reduced tax rate as a simple example, which would also encourage the wealthy to get their children involved). I am sure other benefits can be found as well.